Template versus Web Editor

[MAllie]

Can anyone tell me the practical differences (ease, result, etc.) between using a template and using an editor (such as Dreamweaver)?

Are the site builders you find attached to hosting companies templates or editors?

[ftaylor]

Dreamweaver etc:
-provide bad/inefficient code;
-are generally not cross browser compatible;
-can be expensive to buy;
+can be a good starting point if you are a complete "newb" at coding html+css.

Templates:
+can be cheap;
+are generally cross browser compatible;
-your website looks like every other website out there;
-can make your content look out of place if you don't choose the right one;
-sometimes have undesired logos/advertising embedded;
-not the best place to start as you need html+css knowledge to really make them work.

Site builders:
~more or less mediocre in every respect.

Content Management Systems (Joomla, Mambo etc):
+Very easy to update and edit;
+Cross browser compatible;
+Full website very quickly with little HTML + CSS knowledge;
-Server knowledge required inc basic setup of SQL databases;
-Looks like every other site out there.

Personal recommendation:

Start from scratch. HTMLDOG.com is a good starting point if you work through the tutorials.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by ftaylor

Personal recommendation:

Start from scratch. HTMLDOG.com is a good starting point if you work through the tutorials.

Good suggestion unless the person making the site doesn't have the knowledge to program or the funds to purchase software like Dreamweaver (and if you're going to do that, bite the bullet and get the whole Creative Suite).

Templates can be a great way to learn web development. Sure, they can look templated and may not work 100% but it will give them a chance to modify a "working" site and expirement with layouts etc to not only see what can be changed but also start to learn the basics of web development.

Programs like DW and Web Expressions (and most HTML editors) also tend to add in a lot of fluff into your programming which will need to be taken out to optimize the site for speed (but don't get me wrong, they're great for updating an entire site (many pages) at once.

Originally Posted by ftaylor

Dreamweaver etc:
-are generally not cross browser compatible;

A lot of my sites are made or maintained with Dreamweaver and I've had no issues with IE, FF, or Safari 9for my Mac friends). Some features won't work with some browsers but that is an issue with different browsers, not the program made to make the site.

[maregee]

Dreamweaver etc:
-provide bad/inefficient code;
-are generally not cross browser compatible;

Not necessarily true (at least, not for recent releases of DW - we won't talk about FrontPage, which did throw in a lot of proprietary/bad code/cross-browser-incompatible code, especially the older versions). But it is expensive to buy and there's a pretty steep learning curve for most people just learning to use it.

Templates - quality depends on the template. There are really nice, standards compliant, templates and there are bloated, badly-coded templates. Depending on the license, many templates can be modified as you see fit.

You do need to know html/css to do this though. Learning at least a little of both is a good idea, whether you eventually use something like Dreamweaver or just Notepad to develop your pages. Even in the most sophisticated WYSIWIG editors, sometimes things Don't Work As Planned, and knowing HTML enables you to go into code view, find and fix the problem.. There are lots of good tutorials on the web, w3schools is one place you might start.

Most "site builders" are designed to be easy to use at the cost of quality output. IMHO, they're a waste of time.

Hope this helps!

[ftaylor]

Originally Posted by draggar

Good suggestion unless the person making the site doesn't have the knowledge to program or the funds to purchase software like Dreamweaver (and if you're going to do that, bite the bullet and get the whole Creative Suite).

Learning from scratch doesn't need Dreamweaver, or any other HTML editor for that matter. I personally use a glorified notepad. All you really need is an editor that tabs all of your .html files and that applies colours to the code appropriately. Dreamweaver is good in that it lists suggestions - but many of these are deprecated and have not been implemented properly by the people who coded the respective browsers. The point of learning from scratch is that you learn to program
MAllie:You might want to investigate Notepad++ if you choose to learn from scratch.

Templates can be a great way to learn web development. Sure, they can look templated and may not work 100% but it will give them a chance to modify a "working" site and expirement with layouts etc to not only see what can be changed but also start to learn the basics of web development.

Really depends what template you buy. Some use over-complicated code or bad practices like tables.

Programs like DW and Web Expressions (and most HTML editors) also tend to add in a lot of fluff into your programming which will need to be taken out to optimize the site for speed (but don't get me wrong, they're great for updating an entire site (many pages) at once.

Agreed; unless you just use DW for the code view.

A lot of my sites are made or maintained with Dreamweaver and I've had no issues with IE, FF, or Safari 9for my Mac friends). Some features won't work with some browsers but that is an issue with different browsers, not the program made to make the site.

In my experience you always have to code hacks yourself. Dreamweaver does not take care of these. I use Linux these days anyway, so latest version of DreamWeaver isn't an option; but that's a different discussion altogether!

[MAllie]

Thanks for all that very useful information. I know HTML but have been trying to learn XHTML and CSS, so thought I'd use a web editor or site builder while I'm learning. I've actually gone and bought XSitePro since I first posted - for some reason I didn't get notification of all the responses. I will see what I can do with it until such time as I feel I have a firm grasp on XHTML and CSS.

[draggar]

http://www.amazon.com/HTML-XHTML-CSS...730605&sr=8-25

Only the book on HTML, XHTML, and CSS (not the Dreamweaver one but I can't ind just that one). It is a very good guide (I have a lot of the series for web development & my old college used some of them as text books).

[MAllie]

I've actually just bought that book, draggar. It's very good, as you say. She explains everything carefully and makes it all seem so approachable.

[draggar]

The whole series is excellent, especially for the beginner (even some are good for more advanced). Start with that one then get the one on PHP & MySQL (I think it is by Larry Ullman).

[MAllie]

I will, thanks. I'm working my way slowly and surely through it. Mind you, I think anything after this might be a bridge too far for me, but I'll see when I get to the end of it.

[draggar]

When I get home tonight I can go though and throw up a suggesion on what books to get in what order, like I said the whole series is excellent. Those two are a definite starter. PHP / MySQL books will show you how to build databse driven sites along with some other features (like the require () command which makes maintaining CSS style sites extremely easy!).

[MAllie]

Sounds great, draggar. A booklist is always very useful, as it kind of gives a direction to your study.

[ftaylor]

MAllie, HTMLDog by Pattrick Griffiths is very good to start with. Many books in the "Friends of Ed" range are good; CSS Mastery by Andy Budd after HTMLDog. Then maybe DOM Scripting: Javascript and the DOM by Jeremy Keith.

[accomatic]

Originally Posted by ftaylor

I use Linux these days anyway, so latest version of DreamWeaver isn't an option; but that's a different discussion altogether!

I've seen latest DreamWeaver being used under Linux with the help of CrossOver software layer. Actually most of Windows software can be successfully used under Linux nowadays.

It's always better to learn the core technologies like XHTML and CSS than to rely on any tool to do the job for you. DreamWeaver is good but the code produced usually requires manual tweaking to achieve excellence.

Books: I recommend *********.com's tutorials and (e)books. These books are written by real pros and cover most of the questions in a practical way.

P.S. Oops, I didn't know s-------t.com is forbidden here. :(

[MAllie]

Thanks, ftaylor and accomatic. I've certainly got plenty to be going on with now.

I do like the idea of being completely in command of what I'm doing. It's the ideal situation.

[draggar]

OK, all of these are "Visual Quickstart Guide (unless otherwise noted):

HTML, XHTML, CSS (You already have this)

PHP6 and MySQL 5 (Larry Ullman) - This will allow you to create better web pages, better management, and also integrate databases into your site (forums, blogs, etc..).

CSS, DHTML, Ajax or JavaScript & Ajax - Depending on the direction you want to go on

There is also one on XML which is good,

There are also more advanced books on PHP and MySQL (sold seperately).

If you dive into Adobe Creative Suite (which I would recommend if you can afford it):
Creating a Site in Adobe Flash Professional (Visual Quickproject Guide) from the same publisher. No, don't make your sites in flash but it will teach you how to make Flash animations.

I have but have not gone into Larry Ullman's "Creating a Web Site with Ajax" yet (Visual Quickproject Guide).

There are also two Visual Quickstart guides on Flash CS3 (one regular and another "advanced"

Dreamweaver CS3

Photoshop CS3 (definitely learn this one!)

If your host uses PHP MyAdmin for database administration (many do) there is a book:
"Mastering phpMyAdmin for Effective MySQL Management" by Marc Delisle (not many books on this, this one isn't bad - Packt Publishing, it has a caterpillar on the front cover)


The thing I love about the Visual Quickstart guides is that they are inexpensive, most do not come with a CD (you can download all of the needed stuff), most are under $30 US, one or two might be over that, where a lot of other books will run you $50 US to start.

[MAllie]

Thanks again, draggar. Yes, those books are very reasonably priced and certainly make the learning curve appear more attractive.

I will save your list for easy access in the future but, as I'm a terrible non-techie, it may be some time till I am past the first one.

Thanks to you all for your very useful comments. If there's ever anything I can do for you, please feel free to pm me. As a writer (fiction) my skills are mainly in that area, but I'll be glad to run an eye over any text you're ever unsure about, perhaps for a website or blog By the way, draggar, what happened to your blog? When I tried to find it I couldn't. If it's still active, could you post the link?

[ftaylor]

accomatic;

As far as I am aware, it is impossible to run all of the CS3 suite on Linux kernel because it has been deliberately coded in such a way that the emulators do not work. I've never tried crossover, thanks for the tip I'll give it a go.

[accomatic]

Originally Posted by ftaylor

accomatic;

As far as I am aware, it is impossible to run all of the CS3 suite on Linux kernel because it has been deliberately coded in such a way that the emulators do not work. I've never tried crossover, thanks for the tip I'll give it a go.

I don't know if all the programs in Adobe CS3 suite can be run with CrossOver or other similar Windows environment emulators. I guess that if it is possible to create portable package with Thinstall software then it will successfully run under Linux with CrossOver. Photoshop CS3, Dreamweaver CS3, Fireworks CS3, Illustrator CS3, Soundbooth CS3 all run smoothly. Of course it is not that easy to install compared to Windows, but it is possible. Search or ask about it on geek forums, they are always eager to help.

[farhan713]

y u guys feel sitebuilders are not good.........i use swsoft one and you can see my website http://www.websitetraders.com ...it is decent