Idn's to break up internet?

[touchring]

I believe in some countries, like Korea, it's already possible for the internet community to thrive without even connecting to overseas networks.

I do not believe IDN.IDN. will take off, especially in countries used to using .com in their country TLD. In fact, IDN.IDN has already failed in China.

To a German or a British, .com means American commerce, but to a Chinese, .com means "The Internet". A chinese company that uses a .cn is viewed as a company that only does local biz -> implies small company. Or that the .com is not available, and the company can't afford to acquire it, so have to use .cn instead.

Ironically, from what i gather from this forum, most Americans also view .com as American commerce, and hence the prejudice againsts .us.

Originally Posted by dwrixon

Just quoting from the Verisign White Paper on Dname. You may be right but these appear very much to be the Verisign proposals.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon



Yes, I agree with Chinese and Japanese there probably isn't much of a problem but they are all demanding IDN.IDN. This won't greatly affect the current registry structure, all means is that you will have the option of typing in or having the extension displayed in whatever language you prefer.

When it comese to Arabic, Farsi and Urdu, this is going to be absolutely essential. Switching scripts means switching cursor direction for right to left languages, which causes Chaos. Even without these languages are a nightmare a initial and final forms of letters vary from how they appear in the middle of words.

Interestingly, with Arabic Verisign have taken a different view on how the dot com show be represented and taken an approach similar to that being suggested by Edwin. The are going to use a single character, which appears to be fairly arbituary.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[I Sold Grandma]

Don't know where I am going wrong in my understanding of IDNs because half the posts in this thread just don't make any sense to me

This is what I understand:

Currently we can all register domains like xn-- mixture of symbols on an english qwerty keyboard known as puny code .com

These domains are called IDNs

In the address bar of a browser like firefox the IDN will be displayed in the foreign characters that have been assigned to the xn--mixture of symbols on an english qwerty keyboard known as puny code , followed by .com in English

The reverse is true as well. Foreign characters typed in the address bar of a browser like firefox when followed by .com in English will resolve to the relevant domain that was registered with the xn-- mixture of symbols on an english qwerty keyboard known as puny code that have been assigned to those foreign characters

Now a major change to this system is proposed, subject to the relevant nations agreeing
The chnage is that the .com part of the URL can be represented by agreed foreign characters but will still resolve to the same URL that ends with the English .com

Have I got it wrong?

[Rubber Duck]

No Joe, you seem to have got it correct.

Of course there is a hell of lot more to it than that but your basic understanding seems to be sound, except that only ICANN is responsible for agree and implementing this. They are of course trying to get a consensus from all interested parties, but there does not seem to a huge political problem. The only risk is that the US Veto the proposals, in which case it would lead to a break up of the Internet because China, Japan, the Arab Countries and India will not stand for it.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Originally Posted by touchring

I do not believe IDN.IDN. will take off, especially in countries used to using .com in their country TLD. In fact, IDN.IDN has already failed in China.

Agree with your other comments. However, I do not see evidence that IDN.IDN has failed in China. Do you have any evidence of this?

Frankly, it makes no difference no technical difference to a speculator whether IDN.com or IDN.IDN prevails, but I think the likelihood that IDN.IDN will prevail and that it will speed conversion to IDN.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

Originally Posted by dwrixon

No Joe, you seem to have got it correct.

Of course there is a hell of lot more to it than that but your basic understanding seems to be sound, except that only ICANN is responsible for agree and implementing this. They are of course trying to get a consensus from all interested parties, but there does not seem to a huge political problem. The only risk is that the US Veto the proposals, in which case it would lead to a break up of the Internet because China, Japan, the Arab Countries and India will not stand for it.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon



Agree with your other comments. However, I do not see evidence that IDN.IDN has failed in China. Do you have any evidence of this?

Frankly, it makes no difference no technical difference to a speculator whether IDN.com or IDN.IDN prevails, but I think the likelihood that IDN.IDN will prevail and that it will speed conversion to IDN.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Well, my company in china used to have one 3/4 years ago, but we decided it's useless and dropped it one year later.

As a matter of fact, i think idn.com in China will take off as a marketing gimmick - a secondary keyword domain, to be placed on advertisements, and also for SEO - type-in traffic, and also for trademark purpose when the primary domain is a pinyin.

[nameslave]

Originally Posted by JOEMART

mixture of symbols on an english qwerty keyboard known as puny code

LOL! I could understand your frustration. And that may be the reason why some domain investors are hesitant in IDN domains. But if you know that millions of people are viewing and typing in non Latin-based characters on a daily basis, everything makes sense.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by touchring

Well, my company in china used to have one 3/4 years ago, but we decided it's useless and dropped it one year later.

As a matter of fact, i think idn.com in China will take off as a marketing gimmick - a secondary keyword domain, to be placed on advertisements, and also for SEO - type-in traffic, and also for trademark purpose when the primary domain is a pinyin.

Well, I am sorry but I totally disagree with you. Yes, IDN will bring SEO advantages and that is what will kill of most Latin dot coms in China. Pinyin will soon disappear altogether. It is not chosen medium for the Chinese and there seems to be a lot of ambiguity in translations, which will cause phishing, unless you are talking about that written in phonetic characters and then you are straight back to IDN anyway.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[Sarcle]

Released this morning.

Originally Posted by agipnews

The meeting also saw an important workshop on Internationalized Domain Name (IDN) implementation, following on from successful IDN workshops held during ICANN's meeting in Luxembourg. During the Vancouver workshop, significant progress was made towards the launch of a global IDN test bed.

News Link

Originally Posted by agipnews

The Board has asked ICANN staff to continue accepting further written comments until December 7, 2005. Following that, ICANN will produce a public report summarizing, analyzing and organizing the feedback provided on the .com and settlement agreements by December 11

Looks to me that Icann is to make a public announcement by the 11 on their findings and decisions.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by dwrixon

Well, I am sorry but I totally disagree with you. Yes, IDN will bring SEO advantages and that is what will kill of most Latin dot coms in China. Pinyin will soon disappear altogether. It is not chosen medium for the Chinese and there seems to be a lot of ambiguity in translations, which will cause phishing, unless you are talking about that written in phonetic characters and then you are straight back to IDN anyway.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Pinyin will soon disappear altogether -> i believe that won't happen in the near future, i've spoken to one or two prc friends on this issue, and pinyin is still preferred by many chinese users.

I think the reason why pinyin is so entrenched is because, many chinese kids are taught pinyin (or abc) in kindergarden, and then learn how to recognize chinese phrases using pinyin. Pinyin is not merely romanization.

Pinyin is like Hangul for China, although Koreans have practically banished 'Chinese characters' by replacing Hanja with Hangul after the Korean war, whereas pinyin plays a learning and international role for chinese.

[ForumDomains]

Originally Posted by Ashaw

speaking of which... what registrars let you register IDN names?

They are somewhat hard to find...

I thought for sure people could freely register them, but many chose not to. Ive always triend to find a decent registrar but could never find a thing. Do they even allow you to register them anymore?

This is my favorite:
http://www.abac.com/IdnSubscription/Step1.jsf

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by touchring

Pinyin will soon disappear altogether -> that won't happen in the near future, i've spoken to one or two prc friends on this issue, and pinyin is still preferred by many chinese users.

The reason why pinyin is so entrenched is because, many chinese kids are taught pinyin (or abc) in kindergarden, and then learn how to recognize chinese phrases using pinyin. Pinyin is not merely romanization.

Pinyin is like Hangul for China, although Koreans have practically banished 'Chinese characters' by replacing Hanja with Hangul after the Korean war, which i think is unfortunate since they have been using Hanja for thousands of year.

I dispute the widespread preference for Pinyin. It was widely used until the standardisation of Chinese Characters in Unicode, but most Chinese Sites are now in Han Characters.

Pinyin is romanization, but agreed it is a learning tool, although primarily used by Foriegners who were largely instrumental in its development.

I worked for a Korean company for over a year in Libya. Most informal writings are indeed in Hangul, but Hanja is still used for Titles and important messages so I would not discount its use in company branding. It gives a Cachet. The Hangul alphabet is not a new development, it was introduced some 600years ago and unlike Pinyin was totally independent of western involvement. The closer parallels are with Hirigana.

Korean unlike Japanese is a language that derives from Chinese and still has huge similarities. The Koreans think of themselves as a Han people. Japanese by contrast is a totally unrelated language whose origins are unclear. The Japanese adopted Chinese Characters to represent their language a little like the Malaysian or Vietnamese adopted Latin characters. They have even re-exported a few modified versions back to China. There is, however, no lingusitic similarity in the languages.

Indeed in China, there are many spoken languages. They have a common written script which encompasses all those languages. The characters have a shared meaning in all those languages. When you come to Pinyin, however, it is quite distinct. Mandarin Pinyin is not comprehensible to a Cantonese, but the Han Characters are!

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[Sarcle]

I would also like to add to this pinyin discussion.

According to Google the 15 most popular queries are infact in Native Characters and not in Pinyin.

Google Link.

[touchring]

Originally Posted by Sarcle

I would also like to add to this pinyin discussion.

According to Google the 15 most popular queries are infact in Native Characters and not in Pinyin.

Google Link.

Yes, that's one proposition for idn.com for the SEO role.

As for the role of pinyin in domain names. Well, i dun really know how to explain, but when i type the word 拼音 right now, I have to do an Alt-Shift, followed by 'pinyin', and then select item 1.

Pinyin is basically the input method for some people, so before the Native Characters can appear, the pinyin must be entered first.

I believe the situation is very different for Japanese or Korean - in that no latin is involved. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Rubber Duck]

A further point with Hanja is that by using these characters the Koreans can address an audience of 1.5 Billion. The Hangul characters will only address the domestic market. With most Korean companies heavily focused on exporting to China and Japan, this not going to be something that is lost on them for very long!!!

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Originally Posted by touchring

Yes, that's one proposition for idn.com for the SEO role.

As for the role of pinyin in domain names. Well, i dun really know how to explain, but when i type the word 拼音 right now, I have to do an Alt-Shift, followed by 'pinyin', and then select item 1.

I hope you guys know what i mean.

Yes, we understand that you are using a Pinyin based system for inputting Chinese. That is one way of doing things, but by using some direct input systems the Chinese can do the equivalent of 160 words a minute. Somehow I doubt whether you are reaching those speeds. The inputting methods have moved on with the technology that supports them. I very much doubt whether your system will still be in use in 10 years time.

There is a distinct difference between saying that your inputting method is dependant on Pinyin than saying that Chinese Characters are based on Pinyin, which is clearly nonsense. We all know the Han characters were around for over a thousand years before Pinyin was developed!

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

Originally Posted by dwrixon

The Koreans think of themselves as a Han people.

This is a potentially explosive claim.

[Rubber Duck]

Well I am only quoting what I was told by Koreans. If I am misinformed it came straight from the horse's mouth!

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

Originally Posted by dwrixon

There is a distinct difference between saying that your inputting method is dependant on Pinyin than saying that Chinese Characters are based on Pinyin, which is clearly nonsense. We all know the Han characters were around for over a thousand years before Pinyin was developed!

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Difficult to explain. That's the way things are. A total transition to chinese idn is going to take some time, even with the assumption that all browsers are idn enabled.

[Sarcle]

Originally Posted by touchring

Difficult to explain. That's the way things are.

I think what your aren't getting, is yes, that is the way that it is. But currently that is the only way it can be on a mass scale.

There are no other options! But the whole point of this thread is that it soon wont be.

[Rubber Duck]

For those unclear on the options of Inputting Chinese Characters please refer to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_input

The Wubi method seems to be the way things are going:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wubi_method

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[nameslave]

I too doubt the Koreans would think of themselves as Hans. For centuries, the Chinese empire had been more like a bully to them.

As for Pinyin, it's something EVERYBODY learns since elementary school in the past 50 years, so basically every Chinese (except those in Taiwan and Hong Kong) can read and kind of write in Pinyin Chinese. And even though it is rarely used for full text writing, you can see signs and banners written in Pinyin almost everywhere. So while IDN may be better received, Pinyin will still be here to stay, at least for the foreseeable future.

EDIT: Hmm ... when did I uncheck the "Show your signature" option?