Indiana - sold - $50k

[Skaboy]

Sorry to see that happen adam

[beatz]

Sorry to hear that Adam; also incredible is the way Netsol "handles" these things - seems if you want any domain that is registered with them all you have to do is call em and say the domain is stolen and you want it transferred to you.

I mean, they take the name away from the buyer WITHOUT further investigation ?!

[proproject]

I thought I had responded to this thread but now I do not see that response. There must be another thread on this topic and I'm confusing them. Anyway, I just wanted to say that we will indeed pay the sales fee to Adam, as he said we should (at least) do. I offered this as soon as the suggestion was brought to my attention. (Before that, we were still hoping NSI would fix the whole matter.)

[WebCat]

Originally posted by proproject
I thought I had responded to this thread but now I do not see that response. There must be another thread on this topic and I'm confusing them. Anyway, I just wanted to say that we will indeed pay the sales fee to Adam, as he said we should (at least) do. I offered this as soon as the suggestion was brought to my attention. (Before that, we were still hoping NSI would fix the whole matter.)

Hello Roger! Some posts were lost when we had a recent hacking incident, so no fear- if you did post here before, that's probably what happened.

This is a very nice and very appropriate gesture!

I wonder if there is a way to institute a procedure for confirming the legal ownership of a domain name BEFORE a sale? A "title search" for domains, especially for high dollar ones being sold out in the public arena.

I can't help but wonder if something like this might have saved Adam $50,000.00!

WebCat

PS-> and NSI fixed it alright, they fixed it good! No wonder so many people hate them.

[DotComGod]

I can confirm as of today I have received no fees back from Afternic.

Still waiting and at this point I cannot recommend Afternic to anyone.

-=DCG=-

[jquail]

Come on afternic, pay the guy. Over 5 months. Whats up with that?!

[freestyler]

Originally Posted by DotComGod

There is a long story about Indiana.com that I will now post.

Bought the domain for 50K at Afternic through Roger.
Paid in full to M. Ines.
Domain transferred to me.
I take ownership and build site.
From that point on its all flaky....

I get email from supposed previous owner.
I contact Roger, Roger basically does nothing.
Netsol takes the domain away from me and gives it back to owner without any enquiry.

At this point I am out 50K and the domain so I contact Netsol and they take it to their lawyers.

End result, they tell me too bad.

To this day:

The domain still point to my site.
I still get all the emails.
I don't own the domain.

Neither Roger nor M. Ines have made any contact to refund me anything.

At least Roger could have given me the fee back he got for the sale.

Now I am off to lawyers to settle this.

That's all I know, sad but all true.

-=DCG=-

Thats really bad. $50k is a big amount . I hope atleast roger can give back the fee.

P.S - I hope no one from NSI was involved in this SCAM

[WebCat]

Originally Posted by proproject

POSTED 1/26/04: I thought I had responded to this thread but now I do not see that response. There must be another thread on this topic and I'm confusing them. Anyway, I just wanted to say that we will indeed pay the sales fee to Adam, as he said we should (at least) do. I offered this as soon as the suggestion was brought to my attention. (Before that, we were still hoping NSI would fix the whole matter.)

Whoh!!!

I would have thought this was taken care of a long time ago!

[DomainQuay]

I'm so sorry to read this...

Best of luck, Adam - I hope somehow it works out for you.

Joni

[DotComGod]

To be honest, before this happened I bought many domains through Afternic and the classy thing for afternic to do would have been to say, hey it was a stolen domain, lets split it and each eat 25,000.

That's what I would have done and I offered that to Roger and he said no.

He has lost much more than that in future business from me and many that I know.

It would have bought him a lot of positive PR, I am still waiting for some results.

-=DCG=-

[trader]

Originally Posted by WebCat

.....I wonder if there is a way to institute a procedure for confirming the legal ownership of a domain name BEFORE a sale? A "title search" for domains, especially for high dollar ones being sold out in the public arena. I can't help but wonder if something like this might have saved Adam $50,000.00!

It seems odd with a $50,000 sale there is nothing done to verify ownership. It seems to me Afternic should try to do that even if their TOS does not legally require they do so.

After reading this and huge hit DCG has taken, I would seriously hesitate doing business with Afternic on any sale more than $100 or so.

Surely the money transfer can be traced to whoever accepted the funds, especially with the strict bank reporting requirements on transactions of that size. Has DCG and Afternic filed criminal complaints with the FBI Internet Fraud Division and if so what has become of it?

[WebCat]

Just a theory, but it seems that if a sales agent (such as Afternic or Sedo) conducts business like this and it becomes public knowledge, that big players that will step up and pay $50,000.00 - $100,000.00+ for a coveted domain will tend to shy away from that sales agent.

In any business, and especially this one, it seems like reputation and known integrity are of utmost importance. I hope there can be some equitable resolution of this, at the very least the promised refunding of sales fees.

[proproject]

For legal reasons, exchanges are not in a position to recover stolen domains/funds after a successful escrow closing. We were never the registrant/owner of the domain so we have no standing in a legal action. We are a 3rd party to the transaction. We do not provide title insurance (no such thing as far as I know). I cannot pretend that we do. Our membership agreement makes that clear.

We have taken action to better verify domain ownership during escrow (involves contacting the registrar), but, unfortunately, no one can guarantee title.

Our offer has been from the beginning to 1) return the sales fee and 2) assist with any investigation/action to recover the remaining funds that were sent to the seller. That offer was accepted verbally; our attorney drafted the paperwork and I sent it to Adam; the $5K is still set aside in the escrow account for this purpose. We're just waiting for Adam to sign and return.

[DotComGod]

Roger, I will not sign the contract saying that you and Afternic are not responsible for any of this. Because you are partially to blame.

I still feel the honorable thing to do is have us split the loss, like I suggested months ago, regardless of what you feel you are responsible for on paper. I think you should look at the goodwill it would bring rather that trying to force me to sign a document so your concience can feel better.

I am not sure how you could think I am being unreasonable when I am offering to take a $25,000 US hit and walk away. I am not willing to take the whole 50,000 US as a hit as I thought I was making a secure transaction when dealing with your company, it is now clear that this was not the case.

I at least thought with you I was dealing with a gentleman and a proper businessman, that verdict is still out.

Just send the 5K back as its money made that we both agree was off a stolen sale. Then go rah rah in the streets as you have won the battle.... but you have certainly lost alot more in future sales from me and most importantly .... respect for the way this whole thing was handled, like I was the crook.

one happy customer may tell one person, but an angry one will tell 30.

I am still out 50,000 US and the domain.

Adam

[DotComGod]

Maybe you should do like pool's marketplace and take ownership of the domain before posting it for sale. That way you would be contacted directly during the transaction if the domain was stolen and would know before the next person loses money.

Adam

[trader]

We don't understand why this question (which has been raised in the past a couple times) has not been addressed by either DCG or Roger? Is there some odd reason you guys do not want to talk about that?

"Surely the money transfer can be traced to whoever accepted the funds, especially with the strict bank reporting requirements on transactions of that size. Has DCG and Afternic filed criminal complaints with the FBI Internet Fraud Division and if so what has become of it?"

[URLCollection]

EDIT - SE INDEXING

[WebCat]

Just one cat's opinion- if I made money off of an illicit transaction, I would return the money to the injured party, no questions asked. I would definitely not use the money as leverage to get some legal document signed.

This would be especially potent if my actions (or inactions) were being publically scrutinized in a huge, popular forum dealing directly with the area my business is built around.

The outcome of this transaction will speak volumes about the integrity and ethics of the players involved. Those impressions are likely to last for a very long time with every domain professional on this board.

WebCat

[proproject]

Steve, I don't think you understand the bond you have. Your legal dept. will explain to you that it covers any wrong-doing by your own employees. It does not insure the title of the domains you broker. Our transfer service is insured with a bond as well. If an employee stole funds, our members would be covered. If escrow.com completed a transaction, and then the buyer was dissatisfied for any reason (the registrar took the domain back from him, for example), escrow.com could do nothing. There is no title insurance for domains. If you think you have it, fax me a copy of the policy or an insurance contact, and I'll investigate it thoroughly.

WebCat, we welcome scrutiny. Ours is a very transparent operation. Afternic did not engage in any illicit activity in this transaction. I'm eager to be kind and courteous to friends in this business, but it would be getting the cart before the horse for us to send money to another party without first agreeing about the facts, agreeing about why the money is being sent.

Adam and I had reached such an agreement by email. So, I engaged Afternic's attorney to put it in writing. Now I'm waiting for Adam to finish his part, or not, his call.

[WebCat]

It seems like several basic facts are clear. How about this:

Fact 1: The domain was stolen, therefore...

Fact 2: The transaction was illicit, therefore...

Fact 3: The 3rd party (Afternic) did not earn the money, and indeed facilitated the transaction, however unknowingly, therefore...

Fact 4: Regardless of any other considerations, the party which made money off the illicit transaction should return that money.

It is dirty money. Tainted. No contract or agreement necessary. And definitely no using the money as a bargaining chip to get an agreement signed. All the rest of it could very well be negotiated and talked about till the cows come home.

Roger, seems to agree the money is due back. Adam, seems to agree he deserves that refund at minimum. At least that part seems very simple.

It's bad money from a bad transaction. Send it back. Period. It's what virtually every domainer here at DNForum would do, and would expect from ANYONE brokering a domain deal.

People might want to review this thread, where the BROKER was held responsible for refunding the entire amount!

http://dnforum.com/showthread.php?t=...=secretary.com