Paypal & scammers in the domain industry

[Banned: jamminsport16]

About 4 weeks ago I agreed to buy the domain 137.biz from Harv23 on aother forum.. I paid him the $30 which we agreed to via pm. He scammed me. He never sent the domain. So I went on paypal.com & filed a complaint & said that he scammed me $30 for a domain that he never had in the first place & so therefore I never got. I continued to tell them that he's had previous allocations & also he talked with me on aim (aol instant messenger) & just laughed in my face how he scammed me. Then his friend got on & said he would Kill me if I got into this any further. I just got an email today from paypal that said they cannot refund my $30 because the item is virtual/intangible. What does this mean to the domain industry? Ever since my scam I've been hesitant of making buying choices. The only person you can trust is yourself. So, selling is easy (because you get the money & then you send the domain). But buying is the worrying part. With this news from paypal, that means that anyone can scam anyone for any domain at any price & they can just keep the money. You can easily just close a paypal account afer scamming someone say $1,000 for a fake domain. The paypal rep. just told me that this incident would be noted in that persons record. Not a suspension, just a simpling friking note.

Paypal email I got today:

Dear James Doyle,

PayPal has concluded our investigation of the following Buyer Complaint:

Case ID: PP-100-xxx-63x
Transaction Date: Aug 19, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$30.00 USD
Seller's Email: alaskanfrontier@gmail.com
Seller's Name: Matt O'Donnell

Unfortunately, PayPal was not able to resolve this dispute because the item
purchased was virtual or intangible. As a result, we have not taken any
action against either account at this time. However, this complaint has
been noted in the seller's record for future reference.

Thank you for your cooperation with our investigation.

Thank you,
Lisa
Protection Services Department

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link located in the top right corner of any page. If
your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and go to
the Resolution Center.

PayPal Email ID PP644

That is total bull crap. I know you may say its only $30, but I'm sure there's been a lot more cases of this! Please help me out & post your opinions. I've contacted paypal over 10 times & kept replying to the issue on there with more conclusive information..

WOW

-James

[Rubber Duck]

About 4 weeks ago I agreed to buy the domain 137.biz from Harv23 on aother forum.. I paid him the $30 which we agreed to via pm. He scammed me. He never sent the domain. So I went on paypal.com & filed a complaint & said that he scammed me $30 for a domain that he never had in the first place & so therefore I never got. I continued to tell them that he's had previous allocations & also he talked with me on aim (aol instant messenger) & just laughed in my face how he scammed me. Then his friend got on & said he would Kill me if I got into this any further. I just got an email today from paypal that said they cannot refund my $30 because the item is virtual/intangible. What does this mean to the domain industry? Ever since my scam I've been hesitant of making buying choices. The only person you can trust is yourself. So, selling is easy (because you get the money & then you send the domain). But buying is the worrying part. With this news from paypal, that means that anyone can scam anyone for any domain at any price & they can just keep the money. You can easily just close a paypal account afer scamming someone say $1,000 for a fake domain. The paypal rep. just told me that this incident would be noted in that persons record. Not a suspension, just a simpling friking note.

Paypal email I got today:

Dear James Doyle,

PayPal has concluded our investigation of the following Buyer Complaint:

Case ID: PP-100-xxx-63x
Transaction Date: Aug 19, 2005
Transaction Amount: -$30.00 USD
Seller's Email: alaskanfrontier@gmail.com
Seller's Name: Matt O'Donnell

Unfortunately, PayPal was not able to resolve this dispute because the item
purchased was virtual or intangible. As a result, we have not taken any
action against either account at this time. However, this complaint has
been noted in the seller's record for future reference.

Thank you for your cooperation with our investigation.

Thank you,
Lisa
Protection Services Department

Please do not reply to this email. This mailbox is not monitored and you
will not receive a response. For assistance, log in to your PayPal account
and click the Help link located in the top right corner of any page. If
your inquiry is regarding a claim, log in to your PayPal account and go to
the Resolution Center.

PayPal Email ID PP644

That is total bull crap. I know you may say its only $30, but I'm sure there's been a lot more cases of this! Please help me out & post your opinions. I've contacted paypal over 10 times & kept replying to the issue on there with more conclusive information..

WOW

-James

James,

There are a number of ways of protecting yourself when buying but it is difficult with low cost items.

One is to buy through a reputable online auction or listing such sedo or Afternic, which incorporate their own Escrow service.

You can also use an independent Escrow service such as Escrow.com.

The other way of playing safe is for you to make an unsolicited approach for a domain. The chance of encountering a conman this way are much reduced.

Frankly, it is not a problem that I am encountering at the moment, as I am doing new registrations. The problem here is finding something of value that nobody has yet thought of. The biggest opportunities here lie with IDN which still offer some interesting situations.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[martialtiger]

Did you get in touch with the other forum to at least point the member out so that it doesn't happen to anyone else? That is terrible. You can probably try and file a complaint with the registry of the domain. I'm not sure it would even do anything but I would try any and everything to make sure that the person is at the very least prevented from doing it any further. Best of luck to you.

[Acro]

File a police report. Death threats are a felony.

[Banned: jamminsport16]

yah i could file a police report lol. but its kinda a waste of time. its not like he was serious. its just stupidity imo ;/ well it wasn't even his domain so u cant report it to the registry as like invalid whois..

[DNGeeks]

paypal is a scam. They can't be relied upon for anything, especially disputes. Learn your lesson and close your account and use someone/something else.

As for the kids you're dealing with, post their information here then forget about them.

[Honan]

Jammin
Google the email addy that you paid

[Banned: jamminsport16]

ok I did, I get 3 links but wut now?

[Lauren]

Jammin
Google the email addy that you paid

A 17 year old from Bulgaria!

Well, he'd have to travel a bit to make good on that death threat.....

I have been using PayPal for sales, but have not used it for purchases yet. I noticed just today when I sent money re: Katrina, that there was a disclaimer saying that their "protection package" (which they do charge for) was limited to physical goods only. So yes, using PayPal is most certainly not going to be the way I go in the future. They just lost my business.

I don't know if I agree with a domain name being intangible....it's got a physical address just like a piece of real estate does!

[DNGeeks]

As for domains being tangible goods, just take a look at the sex.com history and you will see where a domain name is trying to be declared property. If a name is property according to the courts then PayPal is just screwing over even more people.

Yes I'm anti paypal, they screwed me over so I am biased.

[Banned: jamminsport16]

Lauren how'd you find him age 17 in Bulgaria?

[Domagon]

While losing $30 sucks, the best thing in this instance, in my view, is to walk away; you filed a complaint and that's basically played out ... it appears, from what others have posted, that you're dealing with a minor from eastern Europe - you basically have no recourse.

Pursueing it further is likely going to cost you more than $30 in both costs and hassles - chalk it up as experience (and be glad the amount wasn't more) and move on...

PayPal is generally best avoided ... with that said, for small sales it's often the only realistic way of getting the deal done; many folks will only use PayPal for non-escrow sales...

Escrow (via escrow.com, etc) is generally only worthwhile for sales around $500+ ... under that, it's likely cheaper in the longrun to take the risk and figure some purchases / sales going bad as the cost of doing business; write-offs.

Escrows aren't totally risk free either, but much safer than dealing direct ...

Ultimately, it comes down to knowing as much about the other party as possible - knowledge is power.

Ron

[Lauren]

Lauren how'd you find him age 17 in Bulgaria?

I just Googled the email as JOEMART suggested.

That led to a free webhosting account application here:
http://www.trap17.com/index.php/free...xa_t20696.html

which shows his age.

Then, if you do a WHOIS.sc on the site name listed that he wants to host, it's registered to someone in Bulgaria.

http://www.whois.sc/arcticclicks.com

I guess it's tough to rely on that info though, so many people are still faking their WHOIS (and certainly shouldn't be) and of course you could really easily lie on a free webhost application too. WIth the site name and his email, etc. I'd be more inclined to believe he's from Alaska.

It comes down to knowing as much about the other party as possible - knowledge is power.

Great post by Ron.

And I know I have learned a lot from you sharing your experience here Jammin.

Lauren

[Dale Hubbard]

If you understand my point, that's $30 well spent. NEVER do intangibles on PayPal unless you know the buyer. PayPal will not consider investigating such matters. I'm sorry for you but glad it wasn't $3,000. Rule of thumb: An 'intangible' is an item you can't physically hold in your hand.

[Banned: jamminsport16]

So I should tell them the item is tangible?

[DNGeeks]

It's not tangible, but it is property. The problem is getting them to see your point and they won't, because this gives them an easy way out so they don't have to deal with it.

[Banned: jamminsport16]

so I should say its goods (other) or something then?

[Domagon]

No ... a better approach is:

1. research who you are dealing with; ask around

2. if the purchase/sale amount is relatively large, use escrow

PayPal can't be relied on for any protection - one is basically on their own there. See http://www.paypalsucks.com/ for the darkside of PayPal - it's an eye opener!

Ron