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[Rubber Duck]

Yes, China takes the record from Japan. Don't know what the US record is, wasn't mentioned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6068744.stm

[StockDoctor]

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

Yes, China takes the record from Japan. Don't know what the US record is, wasn't mentioned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6068744.stm

Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, has raised $19bn

Don't know the US record off hand, but I know of 1 US citizen that could afford to have bot up that entire offering 3 times over, just using his personal funds.

Analysts said the potential for growth of consumer and corporate lending in China was massive as wage levels increase and company profits rise.

Lot of room for growth over there, especially in wages. Be good to see, as the average hourly wage paid by walmart for it's chinese contractors is 17 cents per hour.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Stocdoctor

Lot of room for growth over there, especially in wages. Be good to see, as the average hourly wage paid by walmart for it's chinese contractors is 17 cents per hour.

Might explain why there is not much motivation to embrace all the financial advice that the US loves doleing out to them, especially when most of their cash is going to propping up an almost bankrupt US adminstration.

As for Bill you are as good as your last product.

Lets hope that Vista makes the grade.

Besides it is not China the US needs to worry about. The US ain't making much right now. It is the competition in the service sector from India that you should all fear.

[StockDoctor]

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

Might explain why there is not much motivation to embrace all the financial advice that the US loves doleing out to them, especially when most of their cash is going to propping up an almost bankrupt US adminstration.

Well, not close to bankrupt, but I'll agree that Bush has accumulated a deficit that equals that of all the past presidents combined

Besides it is not China the US needs to worry about. The US ain't making much right now. It is the competition in the service sector from India that you should all fear.

The US can and should just take care of itself. I wish they'd quit "taking care" of every other country out there. Just like Rice saying we will cover Japan's defense again. Screw that, and screw Bush selling all those jets to Pakistan. The US could have purchased the China bank 20 times over with what we blew in Iraq. We need to start caring for our own people (like New Orleans) and quit stickin our nose in everybody else's business.

I know, I know, but maybe the thread should have been started in the political forum as the message was clear.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Stocdoctor

Well, not close to bankrupt, but I'll agree that Bush has accumulated a deficit that equals that of all the past presidents combined
The US can and should just take care of itself. I wish they'd quit "taking care" of every other country out there. Just like Rice saying we will cover Japan's defense again. Screw that, and screw Bush selling all those jets to Pakistan. The US could have purchased the China bank 20 times over with what we blew in Iraq. We need to start caring for our own people (like New Orleans) and quit stickin our nose in everybody else's business.

I know, I know, but maybe the thread should have been started in the political forum as the message was clear.

Well you are only bankrupt when your major creditors pull the plug. You had better hope that the Chinese continue to exhibit that Confusian reserve.

You went into Iraq for reasons directly related to oil. You whole economy is just about based on wasting one of the World's scarcest commodities. That is what you economic might stands on. That is why you are waste deep in the sh*t.

Your international trade seems to be based on the premise that nobody else matters, and why can't they all speak English anyway.

Yes Chinese workers are paid pitifully low wages to keep American living lives well beyond anything that their productivity levels can justify, but ask youselves whose problem that that is. The Chinese can implement price increases any time they want, just by agree to Mr Bushes demands. It seems to me that half the time he is bluffing, demanding stuff in the most arrogant fashion, whilst all the time hoping that will actually dig their heals in and maintain the status quo by refusing.

[yesbrilliant]

Originally Posted by Stocdoctor

Lot of room for growth over there, especially in wages. Be good to see, as the average hourly wage paid by walmart for it's chinese contractors is 17 cents per hour.

Does anyone know the the average yearly wage in all China?

US$100. PER YEAR!!!

I read that in a business magazine that I do not remember the name, just a couple of months ago. That explains why we can find the numerous Dollar Stores in North America!

[Rubber Duck]

Well that is pretty much as conclusive proof as anyone needs that your average domainer talks bollocks and isn't capable of using Google.

I made this search "Average Wages China" and had a look at the top entry, which looked reliable:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4436692.stm

Project manager: £12,173
Software engineer: £6,998
Accountant: £4,677
Sales rep: £2,649
Production worker: £1,214
Source: Mercer Human Resource Consulting

[yesbrilliant]

Like I said in my post "in all China" meaning all the population of 1.2+ billion people, with a large rural population, not specialized or semi-specialized professions...

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by yesbrilliant

Like I said in my post "in all China" meaning all the population of 1.2+ billion people, with a large rural population, not specialized or semi-specialized professions...

That's as maybe but how about producing some credible data with a reference.

If the average production worker is taking about $200 a month, it is difficult to see how wages can be as low as you suggest, unless most of them are sat around picking their butts. For each one employed in manufacturering there would need to be another 30 doing precisely nothing even if you neglect the professionals.

If all this were true how come just about everything you buy is made over there?

[CashCowDomains]

..

[Rubber Duck]

I can now see why a half wit like Bush was elected president. In some quarters he must be regarded as a deity!

[StockDoctor]

Originally Posted by Rubber Duck

If all this were true how come just about everything you buy is made over there?

Cheap labor is right, and I agree with the Duck's opinion of Bush.

But I would like to know from the Duck whether his figures include child labor? Is it still condoned over there? I found the information on Walmart interesting. A typical 13 year old working for a China subcontractor making 40 shirts (a day) for the National Football Leauge (that sell for $75 here) gets paid $3.32 for a 45 hour week. No wonder US manufacturing jobs are disappearing, and outsourcing is so popular with the rich corporations. That kindof growth on the backs of the Chinese poor is not so much to be proud of.

Just for comparison, Walmart's average subcontractor wages (per hour) paid in other countries that it takes advantage of are:

Swaziland 53 cents
Indonesia 46 cents
Nicaraqua 23 cents
Bangladesh 17 cents
China 17 cents

[actnow]

Boy, aren't we all on a soapbox today?

It really doesn't take long to go from a creditor to a debtor nation.
And, vice versa.

Futhermore, an important valuation needs to be included in your bashings.

What would happen if the yuan was not indirectly tied to the U.S. dollar?
And, also, what effect would the price of oil have on China if the price
of oil was not indirectly tied to the U.S. dollar?

The exchange rate of the U.S. dollar is just important to China as it is to the U.S.
(Including and excluding the amount of U.S. dollars controlled by China.)

I'm not going to debate it here. However, it is extensively discussed in
the world of International finance.

[Rubber Duck]

None of this reduces the problem that the US and to a lesser extent what other Western Economies are facing.

China is rapidly becoming the high tech manufacturing centre of the globe and is has already started to decimate manufacturing in the West. Many take comfort in the fact that it our companies doing it over there. This maybe true to some extent, but there is a massive level of technilogical transfer going on, and the proportion of good that comes from indigenous companies is growing rapidly. Organic growth and reverse take-overs will see the Chinese control an ever greater share of the action.

The real threat though is not from China. The lions share of investment from US high tech firms is actually going to India. What China is doing to your manufacturing today, India will be doing to your Service Sectors tomorrow. Yes, at the moment a lot of it is about offshoring Call Centres and the like. However, that is just the start.

The World Order is changing, and the dominance of the US is not just under threat, it is coming to a close. Those that recognise the changes can limit the damage.

The big players including your Mr Gates are already moving to mitigate the damage, to their own companies. Their loyalties are to their corporate entities, not the US or its citizens. Beware of this distinction. Under the British Empire, the ordinary people of Great Britian were often treated almost as badly as those in the colonies. Do not expect the Walmarts of this World to treat you more fairly because you come from the US. If they could get away with paying you 17 cents for the hours, that is what you would be getting.

Very large structural changes to World economy are already taking shape. Those that are not prepared to recognise these changes will not be positioned to mitigate the damage.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Stocdoctor

Don't know the US record off hand, but I know of 1 US citizen that could afford to have bot up that entire offering 3 times over, just using his personal funds.

Yes, I guess you are right Ford has just managed to loose almost as much in a single quarter!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6077234.stm

[labrocca]

Originally Posted by actnow

Boy, aren't we all on a soapbox today?

It really doesn't take long to go from a creditor to a debtor nation.
And, vice versa.

Futhermore, an important valuation needs to be included in your bashings.

What would happen if the yuan was not indirectly tied to the U.S. dollar?
And, also, what effect would the price of oil have on China if the price
of oil was not indirectly tied to the U.S. dollar?

The exchange rate of the U.S. dollar is just important to China as it is to the U.S.
(Including and excluding the amount of U.S. dollars controlled by China.)

I'm not going to debate it here. However, it is extensively discussed in
the world of International finance.

The only intelligent post in this thread.

[Duckinla]

It's always a sloppy arguement when you paint with too broad a brush.

We learned a surprising thing in Finance class. Debt is not necessarily bad. Sometimes it's very good. It's all about the cost of debt and how much you can grow from it. There's a time to borrow and a time to pay back.

The U.S. is borrowing lots of money from China. That sounds really bad until you realize that it's at historically low interest rates and China has much more chance of getting screwed from it in the long run.

The Bush Admin is borrowing more money than all presidents before. That sounds bad until you realize that the rate if GDP growth is greater than the borrowing as a percent of GDP. And again take into account the very low interest rates. Do you understand what happens to those long-term bonds if interest rates climb to 8 or 9 percent? They lose about half their value.

If China was in such strong position, they wouldn't need artificial exchange rates to prop up their growth. Now that's a plug that could be pulled anytime.

Donald Trump understands this one: Loan someone a dollar and you're a lender. Loan someone a billion dollars and you're a partner. That's a lesson China will soon learn with all this lending to the U.S. It won't be them who holds the power to crush the others economy.

[denny007]

Originally Posted by Stocdoctor

Be good to see, as the average hourly wage paid by walmart for it's chinese contractors is 17 cents per hour.

Which tabloid you get THESE information from. Even in the poorest provinces the lowest wage in some assembly shop is $100 (thats 50 cents per hour), in southern provinces it ias $150 (75 cents per hour) and experienced workers can earn up to double.

Originally Posted by yesbrilliant

Does anyone know the the average yearly wage in all China?
US$100. PER YEAR!!!
I read that in a business magazine that I do not remember the name, just a couple of months ago. That explains why we can find the numerous Dollar Stores in North America!

Better stop reading tabloids. Read Fortune, Business week etc.

[Rubber Duck]

Originally Posted by Duckinla

It's always a sloppy arguement when you paint with too broad a brush.

We learned a surprising thing in Finance class. Debt is not necessarily bad. Sometimes it's very good. It's all about the cost of debt and how much you can grow from it. There's a time to borrow and a time to pay back.

The U.S. is borrowing lots of money from China. That sounds really bad until you realize that it's at historically low interest rates and China has much more chance of getting screwed from it in the long run.

The Bush Admin is borrowing more money than all presidents before. That sounds bad until you realize that the rate if GDP growth is greater than the borrowing as a percent of GDP. And again take into account the very low interest rates. Do you understand what happens to those long-term bonds if interest rates climb to 8 or 9 percent? They lose about half their value.

If China was in such strong position, they wouldn't need artificial exchange rates to prop up their growth. Now that's a plug that could be pulled anytime.

Donald Trump understands this one: Loan someone a dollar and you're a lender. Loan someone a billion dollars and you're a partner. That's a lesson China will soon learn with all this lending to the U.S. It won't be them who holds the power to crush the others economy.

There is some merit in this and also some truth in what has been said previously, but the underlying truth is that continue to attract new investment that you need to pay the interest charges, interests rates are going to have to keep going up.

China actually doesn't need the lower exchange rate, but is probably put of to some extent to see it foreign lending being devalued in this way. China probably doesn't need to export to US. International trade are not the be and end all of an economy, unless you are borrowing money that you have no means of repaying. The US is quickly running out of options. To keep the money flowing either interest rates or taxes are going to have to increase, unless the US can find something it can export at a price the rest of the World wants. OK, there is Vista. Hang tight for that, but where exactly is Microsoft going to ship from. Do you think that every copy that is sold in Europe and Japan is going to be exported from the US, and the tax duty duely paid? I sorry but the US is overdue a recession and it is likely to be prolonged.

Yes spending borrowed money can be hugely advantageous to an economy but only when it represents capital investment in the productive capacity of that country. When most of the money seems to be being used to stack the shelves in Walmart, this appears to be an extremely dubious argument. Going from a debtor to a creditor nation is not such an easy trick as you might imagine.

[Duckinla]

Of course a U.S. recession is likely inevitable at some point. But it's not all doom and gloom for the U.S. Most of the current U.S. trade deficit is energy related. The U.S. really needs to do 3 things to be on healthy footing for the futre: Balance the budget, become a net producer of energy and raise interest rates a couple of points. Rise in interest rates will probably be the cause of the recession.

Consider this on Chinese investment in U.S. bonds:

Don't know the real exchange rate so I will use example of 10 Yuan to $1 for simplicity. The true market rate should probably be 60% of that or 6 Yuan to $1.

10 million yuan invested in $1million US bonds.
If interest rates rose from 5% to 8%, that bond would be worth maybe $800,00. If the Yuan were forced to true market value, that would convert back to 5.6 million yuan. That is potential loss of 44% on investment. In addition the price of all goods coming to the U.S. increases by 40% and the U.S. is more likely to return to manufacturing. China has much at stake in their relationship with the U.S.