Yahoo ranking IDN URLs

[Rubber Duck]

It is confirmed that Yahoo are ranking the local characters in the IDN Domain, and giving it precidence over any other entries in URL.

If you do advanced search and put in popular local characters into the Search request it throws up sites with IDN URLs.

Try 大阪 Osaka or 東京 Tokyo

Situation is less clear with Google as that throws up thousands of results, due to the fact that it is not just checking domains but whole URL. It would seem common practice in Japan to name subdirectories in Local Characters.

This is highly significant, as because over 90% of search terms in the Far East are in local characters, and because Yahoo dominates Japanese Search, the imperative to register and at least redirect an IDN domain is now obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[none]

It is confirmed that Yahoo are ranking the local characters in the IDN Domain, and giving it precidence over any other entries in URL.

If you do advanced search and put in popular local characters into the Search request it throws up sites with IDN URLs.

Try 大阪 Osaka or 東京 Tokyo

Situation is less clear with Google as that throws up thousands of results, due to the fact that it is not just checking domains but whole URL. It would seem common practice in Japan to name subdirectories in Local Characters.

This is highly significant, as because over 90% of search terms in the Far East are in local characters, and because Yahoo dominates Japanese Search, the imperative to register and at least redirect an IDN domain is now obvious to anyone with half a brain.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

I see what you mean. Good catch.

inurl:東京 in yahoo throws up hundreds of sites with '東京' as part of the main url, not subdirectories as Google is currently doing. Chalk one up for Yahoo!

[mole]

It's happening, isn't it, the IDN part?

[Rubber Duck]

Yes, the Iceman cometh, and its going to get very cold and lonely for a lot of people with ccTLDs in English Keywords.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[mole]

It is absolutely fascinating to see how the Internet is evolving so rapidly into new forms of relevance to cater to the specific needs of the people who use it.

I have a lot of English keywords on the .CN namespace, but then I also figure that there are two sides to the coin in commerce - 1. marketing to Chinese nationals and 2. marketing to foreigners wanting to do business with China.

I think it really depends on your target segment and development plans.

[none]

It's happening, isn't it, the IDN part?

Yep. :-D

It is absolutely fascinating to see how the Internet is evolving so rapidly into new forms of relevance to cater to the specific needs of the people who use it.

I have a lot of English keywords on the .CN namespace, but then I also figure that there are two sides to the coin in commerce - 1. marketing to Chinese nationals and 2. marketing to foreigners wanting to do business with China.

I think it really depends on your target segment and development plans.

I chuckle when I see some predictions that IDNs won't be viable for '5 years'. That's a lifetime in internet years.

I do like the .CN namespace in both english and chinese. It's relative high cost seems to have acted as a sort of deterent to the average speculator, which has been a boon for those with more conviction.

[mole]

I do like the .CN namespace in both english and chinese. It's relative high cost seems to have acted as a sort of deterent to the average speculator, which has been a boon for those with more conviction.

The .CN namespace is one of the very few ccTLDs that you need to stake a flag down on as early as possible if you intend to be a global player. This market is absolutely phenomenal in terms of pent up consumer demand and will to give everything to succeed. Google ignored the namespace early in the game and learnt the hard way - a $1m lesson.

I think English will be the international language bridge between the millions of Chinese wanting to woo foreign investors in, and foreigners trying to get into the action. I'm not saying IDNs do not have any less of a role, just pointing out another part of the China equation.

[Sarcle]

What's all this nonsense about IDN domains? People wanting to; and then actually typing in their own language? That's insanity!

[Rubber Duck]

Yep. :-D

I chuckle when I see some predictions that IDNs won't be viable for '5 years'. That's a lifetime in internet years.

I do like the .CN namespace in both english and chinese. It's relative high cost seems to have acted as a sort of deterent to the average speculator, which has been a boon for those with more conviction.

Yes, it is about convinction! Those that had the convinction in the dot com name space 5-10year ago are now millionaires! Same will be true of IDN.

What people forget though, is that wheel doesn't need reinventing. Once IDN starts to move they will be adopted at a phenomenal pace. Time scales being talked about are rediculous. With the release of IE 7.0, if this doen't happen in 12-18 months, it won't happen at all!

If you have the money and the balls the time to act is now. Language skills are useful but not essential. I don't really have any myself.

The best stuff is now disappearing rapidly and a secondary market is developing. Those that are interested but lack essential information or just need advice are free to email me. I have already put huge amounts of information into the public domain and will continue to do so, but not necessarily here in open forum.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

What's all this nonsense about IDN domains? People wanting to; and then actually typing in their own language? That's insanity!

Yes, why would they want to do that when all they have to do is learn another language, which is written in an unfamilar script?

The .CN namespace is one of the very few ccTLDs that you need to stake a flag down on as early as possible if you intend to be a global player. This market is absolutely phenomenal in terms of pent up consumer demand and will to give everything to succeed. Google ignored the namespace early in the game and learnt the hard way - a $1m lesson.

I think English will be the international language bridge between the millions of Chinese wanting to woo foreign investors in, and foreigners trying to get into the action. I'm not saying IDNs do not have any less of a role, just pointing out another part of the China equation.

Yes and they still don't have:

xn--cesv58a.cn 本地 Local (Bendi Google)

I am sure you are right that the Chinese will need to market in English, but surely the usual daft arguements apply, like they don't have credit cards and they are still using Windows 3.1. Actually, you are of course totally correct there is a market, but it is not the primary market.

The other main thing that people forget, is that Chinese Retail infrastructure is being built from scratch, so all investment will be made with at least one eye on ecommerce. Nobody, is going to invest millions into the department store niches that are struggling survive in the US and UK. Much of the investment will go straight into ecommerce distribution centres and systems.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Just a quick extra point on dot CN. There is a very important linguistic reason why IDN dot CN should be more valuable than English dot CN and that is Ambiguity. There are no tenses, verb agreements or plurals in Chinese characters. One domain in Chinese probably relates to about 10 possibilities in English. Miss the one you need and there are no sensible work arounds!

[namewaiter]

well i guess it all comes down to where you want to conduct your online business (if your plan is development)... my sites are and will be catered to the US so I don't see viable IDN uses here in the states, but good luck to those who hold IDNs - this would seem like good news to you.

[Rubber Duck]

well i guess it all comes down to where you want to conduct your online business (if your plan is development)... my sites are and will be catered to the US so I don't see viable IDN uses here in the states, but good luck to those who hold IDNs - this would seem like good news to you.

No absolutely right. If you target market is North America, they are very little value.

Agreed a sale of a Chinese IDN today for mid $xxx, for a good but not exceptional domain, and there seems to be growing interest.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[DaddyHalbucks]

What's all this nonsense about IDN domains? People wanting to; and then actually typing in their own language? That's insanity!

I don't think convenience of the end user is in dispute.

One major question is how do you run such a system securely, without giving "phishers" yet another tool to defraud.

Another question is how to monetize the clicks. Foreign traffic is usually not worth much because it is hard to bill.

[touchring]

Yes, it is about convinction! Those that had the convinction in the dot com name space 5-10year ago are now millionaires! Same will be true of IDN.

What people forget though, is that wheel doesn't need reinventing. Once IDN starts to move they will be adopted at a phenomenal pace. Time scales being talked about are rediculous. With the release of IE 7.0, if this doen't happen in 12-18 months, it won't happen at all!

If you have the money and the balls the time to act is now. Language skills are useful but not essential. I don't really have any myself.

The best stuff is now disappearing rapidly and a secondary market is developing. Those that are interested but lack essential information or just need advice are free to email me. I have already put huge amounts of information into the public domain and will continue to do so, but not necessarily here in open forum.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon



Yes, why would they want to do that when all they have to do is learn another language, which is written in an unfamilar script?



Yes and they still don't have:

xn--cesv58a.cn 本地 Local (Bendi Google)

I am sure you are right that the Chinese will need to market in English, but surely the usual daft arguements apply, like they don't have credit cards and they are still using Windows 3.1. Actually, you are of course totally correct there is a market, but it is not the primary market.

The other main thing that people forget, is that Chinese Retail infrastructure is being built from scratch, so all investment will be made with at least one eye on ecommerce. Nobody, is going to invest millions into the department store niches that are struggling survive in the US and UK. Much of the investment will go straight into ecommerce distribution centres and systems.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Just a quick extra point on dot CN. There is a very important linguistic reason why IDN dot CN should be more valuable than English dot CN and that is Ambiguity. There are no tenses, verb agreements or plurals in Chinese characters. One domain in Chinese probably relates to about 10 possibilities in English. Miss the one you need and there are no sensible work arounds!

Considering that more than 80% of XP installed in China are pirated, i dun think more than 20% of XPs in china will be IDN compatible after 1 year, even if we assume that everyone updates their XP. Of cos, there is the service pack crack, but that cost money to buy - many may not find it worthwhile to part with $1 for the patch in the short term.

I think IDN in China will take off when longhorn is released - you'll be surprised how fast people will upgrade once the $1 long horn appears in the shops. The conversion will be 100 times faster than in the West.

[Rubber Duck]

Actually, the Phishing argument is a complete red-herring. Phishing up until now has been largely done without the use of IDN. Yes, there was a potential risk that IDNs would be used for this purpose but the blocking of script combinations by registries under ICANNS instructions will have largely eliminated this. Furthermore the additional security enhancements on IE 7.0 will provide a means of further reducing the threat.

If you look at things from the opposite perspective, making people use ambigious transcriptions into a foriegn language is going to put the Chinese and Japanese at proportionately far greater risk of phishing, than the introduction of Chinese script is going to the Americans at risk. If you want to take the moral high ground on this one, then support the implementation of IDN.

Google and Yahoo are very active in both Japan and are competing hard to gain market share in the PPC market in China. In the short-term the only way of easily monetizing the traffic is to park at sedo. This already works, indeed I have already been credited for clicks on Thai script IDN, let alone Chinese and Japanese. For the time being Arabic and other left to right script cannot be monetized, but it is only a question of sedo getting their sites sorted out.
The other issue is the penetration of Google Adwords into the respective markets. It is still trailing Overture quite a bid interms of the number of adverts and bid per click in Japan, and the level of penetration in the Chinese market remain low and behind Baidu, but going back 3 years it didn't exist in America either, so I believe it is only a question of patience.

The bottom line is if the traffic can be monetized somebody will do it, if it is commercially viable. With real estate prices in Shanghai higher than in the US, it is not difficult to see where the demand is coming from. The generally held view that China only prospers because of US investment is actually totally false. The Chinese trade surpluses may seem huge but they do not account for most of Chinese GDP by any stretch of the imagination. As in the US most of the growth comes from burgoning internal demand. The economy is growing at a phenominal rate. Officially growth is about 9.5% per annum, but if you look at it on Price Parity basis, then it much much greater than that. OK, some laugh about such measures, but the truth is if China does revalue significantly as America is demanding then this will reflect in the GDP measure in dollars. A similar thing happened with Japan in the 60s and 70s. Most of the increase in the size of the economy will have been due not to internal growth as measured in Yen but due to the appreciation of the Yen against the dollar.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Considering that more than 80% of XP installed in China are pirated, i dun think more than 20% of XPs in china will be IDN compatible after 1 year, even if we assume that everyone updates their XP. Of cos, there is the service pack crack, but that cost money to buy - many may not find it worthwhile to part with $1 for the patch in the short term.

I think IDN in China will take off when longhorn is released - you'll be surprised how fast people will upgrade once the $1 long horn appears in the shops. The conversion will be 100 times faster than in the West.

Whilst I am sure there is a lot piracy in the China, I find these quoted percentage above a little bit fanciful. Do you have anything to back these assertions?

Don't forget that China is the world largest supplier of PCs. Even Dell have all their PCs made out theire. The growth in the Chinese market has been such that most of PCs are comparatively new when viewed against the West. You would probably be hard pushed to find much in the way of a second-hand computer. Ther presumption that all this newly shipped hardware is running on pirated operating systems seems to be to be a bit of an Urban Myth. It woud be interesting to know how much Microsoft actually changes for an OEM licence for the Chinese Market. I hazard that it will be a lot less than we are ripped-off for.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

Actually, the Phishing argument is a complete red-herring. Phishing up until now has been largely done without the use of IDN. Yes, there was a potential risk that IDNs would be used for this purpose but the blocking of script combinations by registries under ICANNS instructions will have largely eliminated this. Furthermore the additional security enhancements on IE 7.0 will provide a means of further reducing the threat.

If you look at things from the opposite perspective, making people use ambigious transcriptions into a foriegn language is going to put the Chinese and Japanese at proportionately far greater risk of phishing, than the introduction of Chinese script is going to the Americans at risk. If you want to take the moral high ground on this one, then support the implementation of IDN.

Google and Yahoo are very active in both Japan and are competing hard to gain market share in the PPC market in China. In the short-term the only way of easily monetizing the traffic is to park at sedo. This already works, indeed I have already been credited for clicks on Thai script IDN, let alone Chinese and Japanese. For the time being Arabic and other left to right script cannot be monetized, but it is only a question of sedo getting their sites sorted out.
The other issue is the penetration of Google Adwords into the respective markets. It is still trailing Overture quite a bid interms of the number of adverts and bid per click in Japan, and the level of penetration in the Chinese market remain low and behind Baidu, but going back 3 years it didn't exist in America either, so I believe it is only a question of patience.

The bottom line is if the traffic can be monetized somebody will do it, if it is commercially viable. With real estate prices in Shanghai higher than in the US, it is not difficult to see where the demand is coming from. The generally held view that China only prospers because of US investment is actually totally false. The Chinese trade surpluses may seem huge but they do not account for most of Chinese GDP by any stretch of the imagination. As in the US most of the growth comes from burgoning internal demand. The economy is growing at a phenominal rate. Officially growth is about 9.5% per annum, but if you look at it on Price Parity basis, then it much much greater than that. OK, some laugh about such measures, but the truth is if China does revalue significantly as America is demanding then this will reflect in the GDP measure in dollars. A similar thing happened with Japan in the 60s and 70s. Most of the increase in the size of the economy will have been due not to internal growth as measured in Yen but due to the appreciation of the Yen against the dollar.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon



Whilst I am sure there is a lot piracy in the China, I find these quoted percentage above a little bit fanciful. Do you have anything to back these assertions?

Don't forget that China is the world largest supplier of PCs. Even Dell have all their PCs made out theire. The growth in the Chinese market has been such that most of PCs are comparatively new when viewed against the West. You would probably be hard pushed to find much in the way of a second-hand computer. Ther presumption that all this newly shipped hardware is running on pirated operating systems seems to be to be a bit of an Urban Myth. It woud be interesting to know how much Microsoft actually changes for an OEM licence for the Chinese Market. I hazard that it will be a lot less than we are ripped-off for.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Firstly, somes PCs are bought without Windows or with pirated Windows installed.

Secondly, those still using Win2k (original OEM) or ME will upgrade to newer XP (pirated CD), effectively trading original with pirated. This will happen in unheard of proportions once longhorn comes.

Thirdly, one original CD might be passed around the company and installed on different PCs, mixing up the licenses - i'm not sure if Windows can detect this kind of piracy, which i think happens in developed nations as well.

[Rubber Duck]

Firstly, somes PCs are bought without Windows or with pirated Windows installed.

Secondly, those still using Win2k (original OEM) or ME will upgrade to newer XP (pirated CD), effectively trading original with pirated. This will happen in unheard of proportions once longhorn comes.

Thirdly, one original CD might be passed around the company and installed on different PCs, mixing up the licenses - i'm not sure if Windows can detect this kind of piracy, which i think happens in developed nations as well.

Yes, I accept that this happens, and I know for a fact that there is fair bit of it going on in the UK. Half the time the Local Computer Man will upgrade customers, without really explaining what he is doing as he will see it as a good way of creating good will.

Whilst, I accept that such practices are also likely to fairly common place in China as well as the West, what I am not convince about that extent to which they are happening. To make a claim that 80% of installed operating system are pirated is a pretty big claim and in my view should not be made without reference to some reliable news source.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

Alright, i did a search Google, i think i underestimated, Microsoft estimated 92% - http://www.crn.com/sections/breaking...cleId=26800066. The other 8% is probably bundled with Dell or HP PCs.

Interestingly, i did a check on 'crack' in simplified chinese, it's still available, at least until this post.

[Rubber Duck]

Thanks, That is absolutely astonishing and I guess Microsoft can be fairly confident of their assertions, as they will know what they have been paid for and total PC sales should not be difficult to estimate. Of course the other possibility is that there is a lot Linux in China, but it would seem that piracy is at very high levels indeed.

All goes to show that there should be little problem getting everyone upgraded to Longhorn within about a Fortnight of its release which is now believed to be scheduled for July 2006. Of course those of us in the West that want an official version will probably have to wait much longer than that!

This also has interesting repercussions for the battle going on between Microsoft and Google. Whilst Microsoft has deeper pockets, their difficulties in extrapolating their revenue stream globally will not be shared by Google with the PPC business. This would seem to indicate that Google is going to cash in on globalisation to a much greater degree than Microsoft.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[touchring]

If the "Chinese version" of longhorn is released in 2006, i think China will adopt IDN faster than Japan. 92% is probably exaggerated by M$. I still believe it is about 80%, otherwise Dell and HP will be selling nothing in China.

[Rubber Duck]

That's interesting. Are there actually different versions of the Operating System software? I must assume that I thought we were all using the same thing and just using different Regional and Language Settings.

Thanks Again
Dave Wrixon