Damn! We Need A Forum Category On Rogue Registrars

[SuccessClick]

I'm fed up. I know many of my clients are too.

How many domainers have to suffer through fraudulent or "inadequately on purpose" notifications and hassles in order to manage or control their domains at lame ass registrars?

I think all of us should be able to go right to a category on this forum that says:

"REGISTRAR COMPLAINTS"

Let me give you an example (and i can give you many) -- I registered a domain i won on snapnames, and it was a domain that expired through DOMAINMONKEY.COM (the registrar name alone should have told me to run immediately).

My normal expectations of any company LICENSED BY ICANN is that they would use ethical procedures and operate with the intention of being legitimate. Additionally, if Snapnames or Pool or Enom or GoPoppa is selling their expiring domains, that they would give us domainers a connection that the SELLER REGISTRAR will do their part in assisting us in RETAINING THE DOMAIN.

But guess what people. I have consulted for several large registrars, and I know their desires and secrets. I can tell you without you doubting my comments that they want you to renew your domains with them, especially if you have over 200 domains with them. BUT... just as much, and more than you know... if you have a valuable domain name, they could give a shit whether you renew it or not. AND THEY KNOW WHAT VALUABLE DOMAINS ARE COMING UP FOR RENEWAL BEFORE YOU RENEW THEM. It's a huge source of income for them, just like those poor blokes who buy a domain and then think they're getting a free place to park it by using the registrar's default landing page. But forget about that, let's talk about your OBVIOUSLY VALUABLE DOMAINS.

Yes, that's right. Your registrar has their eyes on YOUR PREMIUM DOMAINS. Most of the best registrars won't jeopardize their company's reputation by purposely keeping you in the dark about your renewal date. ENom bought Bulkregister, and they have a system they're honing to pound out mini websites to monetize their domains - and they've bought hundreds of thousands of domains to their own portfolios in order to own the internet real estate. They would love it if you forgot to renew some two word descriptive popular product domain. In 45 days, it's theirs, and they will auction it off with a gleam in their eye as they watch the bidders pass the $2,000 mark and keep going... check DNjournal.com for Snapname and Pool purchase prices. Those high prices aren't being paid to the last registrant --- the last registrant is crying big old waterfall tears. Why? Cuz the registrar took over the domain and is getting the majority of the value of the domain sale. It's HUGE business... literally in the 100's of millions of dollars each year. Yep.

Legit registrars aside, there are lots of reseller and dumbass registrars out there who make LOTS OF MONEY by either:

1. Not sending out renewal notices
2. Sending out renewal notices only a week to three days prior to the expiration date.
3. Hiding the EPP code for transfers out
4. Making you remember secondary codes to manage your domains even once you've logged into your account at the registrar (especially if the domain is defaulted to their own parking pages).
5. The 60 day "hold period" when a domain is bought -- gladly supported by registrars so that you can't immediately move a domain out of a lame registrar or any registrar within 60 day of registering it. What is that requirement really supposed to do? What's that "hold" period accomplishing, and for who? Security? Flipping domains too quickly? What?

Back to Domainmonkey.com, it seems that it's better for them to send renewal notices a scant 3 days before expiration, then if you haven't checked your email, and find out it's expired, they give you NO WAY to find that domain within their system and allow you to renew it even within a normal 5 day grace period. I've filed a complaint with them, so I will give you an update on their response.

Be careful on buying expiring domains that are located at these oddball registrars. There really is no watchdog organization with any bullets in their gun to sign them out when they play games with their customers. When domains can be worth tens of thousands of dollars, registrars love it when you don't renew them and they send it off to be auctioned off on Pool or Snap or wherever, and they collect their 70% when the domain is sold off.

I've been watching these registrars closely, and compiling a list of the culprits... I've complained to the EXECUTIVES of these expiring domain companies who accept the domains submitted by these registrars to be resold, and the previous buyers may have been suckered because they aren't as domain savvy as you or me. That may be GOOD for domainers wanting to get a good deal, but in another, I wouldn't want to buy a domain that was sold by a registrar who failed to fairly notify the owner of the renewal date and allow the domainer a five - ten day grace period to renew. I'm not that much of a greedy F*CK, and i don't like it being done to me.

What say you? Do you have stories of bad registrars? Let's hear them. Let's start an ongoing "REGISTRAR BLACKMARK" poll to see which registrars use the worst business practices.

It's time for domainers to rise up and DEMAND fair service. We can't be lackadaisical anymore and just accept things the way they are. It's time for the domain industry to focus on the domainers.

let's hear your comments.

Here's the renewal notices FIRST DATE SENT. The domain expired on 1.23.07

Here's their FIRST notice:
+++
From: Domain Monkeys Renewals Department <support@domainmonkeys.com> Mailed-By: webhost1.webhostingsystems.com
To: xxxxxxxx@gmail.com
Date: Jan 20, 2007 2:24 AM
Subject: xxxxxxECHNOLOGY.ORG - URGENT

Your domain xxxxxxECHNOLOGY.ORG is about to be DELETED due to being expired. (NOTE BY ME: They're saying it's expired three days before the expiration date)

Recovery of domains after deletion is an expensive and time consuming process. You may lose your domain name PERMANENTLY.

Please visit http://www.domainmonkeys.com and renew your domain immediately to prevent the loss of your domain name.

--
Domain Monkeys Renewals Dept.
support@domainmonkeys.com
++++++

So when I checked on it -- TWO DAYS AFTER EXPIRATION, here's what I found on a whois check:

++++
Domain ID109878771-LROR
Domain Name:xxxxxxECHNOLOGY.ORG
Created On:23-Dec-2005 19:09:28 UTC
Last Updated On:23-Jan-2007 16:22:53 UTC
Expiration Date:23-Dec-2007 19:09:28 UTC
Sponsoring Registraromain Monkeys, LLC (R1287-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant IDM-2596
Registrant Name:Information Support
Registrant Organizationomain Monkeys, LLC
Registrant Street1:4094 Majestic Lane
Registrant Street2:Suite 109
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Fairfax
Registrant State/Province:VA
Registrant Postal Code:22033
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.7036526049
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:
Admin IDM-2596
Admin Name:Information Support
Admin Organizationomain Monkeys, LLC
Admin Street1:4094 Majestic Lane
Admin Street2:Suite 109
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Fairfax
Admin State/Province:VA
Admin Postal Code:22033
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.7036526049
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:
Tech IDM-2596
Tech Name:Information Support
Tech Organizationomain Monkeys, LLC
Tech Street1:4094 Majestic Lane
Tech Street2:Suite 109
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Fairfax
Tech State/Province:VA
Tech Postal Code:22033
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.7036526049
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:
Name server:NS1.DOMAINMONKEYS.COM
Name Server:NS2.DOMAINMONKEYS.COM

++++++

Within 2 days of expiration, they had already TAKEN OVER THE DOMAIN.

DOMAINMONKEY.COM... remember this registrar.

[Keyword Factory]

I always tell people on here the first thing you look at with a registrar is not price but rather their legal department and compliance department. If I have a problem with an auth code then the compliance dept. gets it through contacts or files a complaint to the registry. In the old days, if things get really bad, I start contact ICANN officials and start leaving voice messages with Vint Cerf. It eventually works.

One time a guy on Ebay who sold me a domain changed the whois but refused to push. I contacted compliance and in LESS THAN 1 HOUR the registrar transfer was completed.

Here are some examples of what some of the big registrars do:

ENOM - http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2003/12/domainreg.htm

GoDaddy: http://news.com.com/GoDaddy+pulls+se...?tag=nefd.lede

I really feel sorry for people who get a domain from me and then they want it moved to one of these places. I lose sleep at night worried about getting my domains out of there.

[Daniel Domainer]

I love it when people dredge up the old DROA/eNom connection. The fact is that once DROA's tactics came to light, their reseller status was immediately revoked by eNom under the terms and conditions of their reseller agreement. This is ancient history.

As for registrars "loving it" if you forget to renew a domain, I have 4 letters. ERGP! (Extended Redemption Grace Period). During the first 90 days after expiration, the registrant has the option to regain full control of the domain. There is a fee, of course. And why shouldn't there be?

No one knocks on your door to let you know when your driver's license is going to expire. You have to have a certain amount of responsibility and diligence to protect yourself and what you own.

I'm not condoning registrars who pull a sneak attack like not letting you know your domain is expiring until 3 days before the fact. That's lowdown and dirty. But to think every registrar is eyeballing your premium names while you still own them is the height of paranoia.

[Keyword Factory]

I love it when people dredge up the old DROA/eNom connection. The fact is that once DROA's tactics came to light, their reseller status was immediately revoked by eNom under the terms and conditions of their reseller agreement. This is ancient history.

Nonsense. There were many arguments with ENOM, Paul Stahura, and their general Counsel for many months. They got notices, not just from me, but from numerous attorneys (at least one post on here) as well as complaints from several other registars such as Tucows. I spoke to Paul Stahura himself and he kept trying to pretend he didn't know what was going on. It was not immediately revoked at all. I don't know who told you that but you were snowed.

[Dave Zan]

The 60 day "hold period" when a domain is bought -- gladly supported by registrars so that you can't immediately move a domain out of a lame registrar or any registrar within 60 day of registering it. What is that requirement really supposed to do? What's that "hold" period accomplishing, and for who? Security? Flipping domains too quickly? What?

IIRC there was really little fanfare...este, discussion on that topic. It was later
on approved with little to no objection.

One "major" reason pointed out by some of those involved was to protect the
registrars from potential losses due to chargebacks and other fraud orders. I
don't recall if this is still applicable today, but people have up to 6 months or
so to dispute their credit card charges for a registration order.

That's what I remember, anyway. Anyone feel free to correct me where I'm
possibly wrong.

Not surprised many of them registrars are eyeing those premium domains. Why
shouldn't they?

Last I checked their site, ItsYourDomain doesn't offer any grace period after a
domain name expires. Then again, they charge a little more than what, say,
Go Daddy does, so really no point using them.

Adding an extra code to manage your domain names (e.g. change DNS) isn't
really a bad idea, although it is a PITA. Probably along something like what
Yahoo does (makes you re-enter your password before changing your details)
might be better for extra security.

[SuccessClick]

Who's talking about "every registrar"? I'm talking about rogue registrars. And when you own thousands of domains, do you think that legitimate registrars sending you renewal notices 90 days out is an ethical practice? Even 60 days out?

No domainer or domain industry company that controls tens of thousands of domains can watch EVERY domain they own, especially those domains picked up on the drop. Get real, Daniel. Once you get some experience at a level of controlling thousands of domains, you DEPEND on the registrars to follow basic ETHICAL and REPUTABLE practices to inform you when your domain is about to expire.

In the case of Monkeydomains.com, I was mistaken even when I discovered when the domain had expired. I thought it expired on Jan 23, 2007, when in fact it expired on December 23, 2006 -- 30 DAYS EARLIER. Domainmonkey.com sent their "renewal" notices out AFTER the expiration date in order to put the domainer in THIS position, as shown in an exact copy of the email response I received from them today when I complained:

check this out...

++++
On 1/26/07, Monkey Support <snapsupport@domainmonkeys.com> wrote:

Sir,

Multiple renewal notices were sent to xxxxxDGRAB@GMAIL.COM during the four weeks prior to the urgent notice you include in your message. At the time the notices start being sent, there is a one-month grace period to renew the registration in our system. The urgent notice you include was sent nearly a week ago. The registration of xxxxxxHNOLOGY.ORG is no longer available for renewal online, but can still be restored using the attached form. Due to the current status of the domain, the registration will need to be renewed for at least a three-year period and a US $40 reactivation fee will also be required. If you wish to renew xxxxxOLOGY.ORG, please use the bottom portion of the attached form to submit payment details. Current cards accepted are Visa, MasterCard, and American Express. If renewing for a three-year period, the total fee will be US $84.85. You can renew for more than three years if you wish. Renewal fees are (all in USD):

3 Years - $44.85 4 Years - $59.80 5 Years - $74.75 6 Years - $89.70 7 Years - $104.65 8 Years - $119.60 9 Years - $134.55 10 Years - $149.50

The completed form can be faxed to +1.303.278.8809 (US) or scanned into a. jpeg file and returned by email. Once we receive all necessary information the restore/renewal should be complete within 1-3 business days.

(NO SIGNATURE ATTACHED TO THIS EMAIL RESPONSE FROM DOMAINMONKEY.COM)
++++++

I have a snapshot of my gmail account search records on the name of the domain, and there are NO RENEWAL NOTICES for this domain from domainmonkey.com until 30 days had passed. They purposely put me into the position of losing the domain, forcing me to pay for a "processing fee" and EXTORTING a THREE YEAR RENEWAL AGREEMENT WITH THEM.

Do you want to go on record right here, on DNforum, as supporting this type of registrar behavior?

That I would like to see.

As far as you thinking registrars aren't eyeballing premium domains for their possible drops, then you aren't a domain consultant for large registrars like I am. TRUST ME, THEY DO THIS. They'd be stupid if they didn't (however, there are a few medium registrars who aren't "tuned in" to this, so I can't say they all have the profit motive I speak of). So my paranoia is only recognizing the facts as they get in the way of my comfort zone... don't make comments about issues you have no experience in. If I post it, it's because I have first-hand experience unless I indicate otherwise.

domainmonkey.com is as perfect as a domain name describing what you're going to get if you buy a domain from them --- monkeys screwing around with your domain. Heaven forbid you paid $6,500 price for a domain on Snapnames trying to outbid XXX and other heavy hitters, just to find out a year later that the registrar that submitted the domain wants you to forget to renew it.

You obviously don't have more than 300 domains to worry about.

I love it when people dredge up the old DROA/eNom connection. The fact is that once DROA's tactics came to light, their reseller status was immediately revoked by eNom under the terms and conditions of their reseller agreement. This is ancient history.

As for registrars "loving it" if you forget to renew a domain, I have 4 letters. ERGP! (Extended Redemption Grace Period). During the first 90 days after expiration, the registrant has the option to regain full control of the domain. There is a fee, of course. And why shouldn't there be?

No one knocks on your door to let you know when your driver's license is going to expire. You have to have a certain amount of responsibility and diligence to protect yourself and what you own.

I'm not condoning registrars who pull a sneak attack like not letting you know your domain is expiring until 3 days before the fact. That's lowdown and dirty. But to think every registrar is eyeballing your premium names while you still own them is the height of paranoia.

Hi Dan,

I'm leaning more towards the "let's not let this domain get picked from the basket (new registration) and then transferred out on a sale (flipping domains).

I've bought several domains right now from users on this forum where I'm waiting for the 60 day period to expire just so I don't have to open an account again at dotster or some other lame registrar. If I forget about them, I will be sorry in a year, won't I? I've found domains that never got pointed to the PS I use, and were defaulted to either the registrar's landing page or the previous owner's landing page. And likewise, I've sold domains several years ago that STILL POINT to my landing pages and I'm collecting revenue on them. Should I send out an email to the new owner to tell them to park their domain somewhere? I've tried that, but I've found that new owners haven't even changed the whois info on the domain either.

We're all a little ambitious in this domain game... but registrars should be regulated by ICANN like the FDA regulates pharmaceuticals. Then we domainers and even basic consumers and business entities can depend on having fair practices used in sending out renewal notices on their domains.

None of the auction sites want to push for this type of fairness, because then it would eliminate a good 20% of their inventory. In other words, it's good to have ignorant domain owners, shady registrars, and failing resellers out there... because it spells profits for them, and maybe a good buy for us.

bah!

IIRC there was really little fanfare...este, discussion on that topic. It was later
on approved with little to no objection.

One "major" reason pointed out by some of those involved was to protect the
registrars from potential losses due to chargebacks and other fraud orders. I
don't recall if this is still applicable today, but people have up to 6 months or
so to dispute their credit card charges for a registration order.

That's what I remember, anyway. Anyone feel free to correct me where I'm
possibly wrong.

Not surprised many of them registrars are eyeing those premium domains. Why
shouldn't they?

Last I checked their site, ItsYourDomain doesn't offer any grace period after a
domain name expires. Then again, they charge a little more than what, say,
Go Daddy does, so really no point using them.

Adding an extra code to manage your domain names (e.g. change DNS) isn't
really a bad idea, although it is a PITA. Probably along something like what
Yahoo does (makes you re-enter your password before changing your details)
might be better for extra security.

[Keyword Factory]

From what I can see ir looks like Daniel Domainer works for ENOM to post here. They have paid people to post on here and respond to complaints. ENOM would rather do it undercover. The funny part is that Daniel Domainer has at least one his personal domains registered at GoDaddy.

As for the renewal notices I would have to blame you to a certain extent for letting the domain stay there. After 60 days you should be moving the domain. If someone paid $6K then they should pay the extra $7 to move it out.

I suggest setting up a database or spreadsheet with all your domains, expiration date, registrar, etc.

[SuccessClick]

I don't care about daniel domainer, but I do care about certain operating procedures that should be mandatory for all registrars and their resellers when domains are coming up for renewal.

Funny you should say that, because I have an excellent database that I designed and have used for years to track the location of my domains. However, I doesn't auto send me an email or pop up some notice when domains may come due for renewal. With 3500 domains, spread out over 30 registrars, it's very hard to even use a database everyday or even once a week SOLELY to find upcoming renewals. I usually look at my main registrars and see what's coming up for renewal.

However, in the case of Domainmonkey.com, the first password they sent me when i purchased it from snap last year actually didn't work and I had to request another password. Once I got in, they no longer had the domain listed. I have a few contacts that will sort the mess out for domainmonkey and get me back the domain at a decent price.

Your suggestion to wait 60 days and then transfer the domain out is also a burden, because then you have to mark some alert system to tell you when the 60 days is up. Add to that the fact that some of these registrars do NOT have a domain manager, hide the EPP code from you, and don't show you where to unlock the domain to transfer it out.

I've got years of experience with hundreds of domains at these types of registrars, and it really makes it a pain to deal with, besides a high cost of operation and possibility of "unethical" or even fraudulent behavior.

I have too many domains and register and renew hundreds every month, so it would be an added problem to manage them... however, i think I might have a general solution to sort it out. Just label each domain with a field "Weird Registrar - Yes or No" and the select "Yes" if its not in the top 20 domain registrars. Then search up all the "YES" marked records every month and check their dates and spend a few hours trying to transfer them out.