ParkItNow.com - scam is suspected

[Ian]

I am also wondering why this PPC service provider asks for tax cards....not even a single one that i do business with has asked me for the months now. In spite of the explanation provided above i wouldn't hesitate to ask why this one??

[beatz]

Err - i'm not from the U.S and i would not know what tax ID i would have to put in as my government only issues me such a "business" tax ID when a certain substantial amount of income is to be expected.

And i don't really want to apply for such an ID just for one PPC provider.

So what should i put in in case i wanna sign up or does that mean i can't participate in the parkitnow program at all ?

Thanks

[cayars]

You would not need to. As I've already said a W8 or W9 is all that is needed. I think this has gotten blown out of proportion. The idea was to try and make it EASY for people but I guess it's only been easy for most and not for ALL.

The general idea was to just put your tax id in one field during signup or modifying it at any time prior to payment. As I said a few messages up, I'm going to put the W8/W9 pdf files up and let people use that if they want. It's fine with me.

This was only to make it easier for people and not to make it hardier. But I guess we learn from our mistakes.

Carlo

[cayars]

I was just thinking about something. So since everyone in this thread is mildly into talking about this let me ask.

How would an "electronic form" representation of both the W8 and W9 be? In other words I'd duplicate the two forms. A user could then fill either out online which would take a few minutes to do. I'd still leave the downloadable version there in case someone felt better doing it in pen and faxing it back. My goal was to make it easy, fast and done with.

Does the online version of the two forms sound like a good idea or just asking for more headaches?

[beatz]

I think here is something you don't seem to understand:

People like me have no clue what a W8 or W9 is at all.

Is that an US tax thing ?

My recommendation is rather than thinking about PDF's or not maybe you should think about other ways to cover your back than to pass it on to your (potential) customers.

I don't see why i should put in any kind of tax number at all if it's a fact my goverment doesn't tax me on that kind of income (as long as it's below a certain amount) and doesn't require me to state my tax ID for that either.

Quite the opposite, i would not feel comfortable to put in my tax ID anywhere where it's not required *for me* by my or any other government because chances even are that my tax gets messed up because i have put in my tax ID for something i'm not supposed to pay taxes for.

I am at several PPC services and this is the first time it's such a big deal for a company - the others must have found ways to cover themselves as well otherwise we would have to fill in our tax ID everywhere but we don't have to ?!

If it's an US thing , then i'd say you have two options:

- Have an option to choose "Non US tax payer" or something for people like me outside the US
- Only allow US customers

Third option as said would be find out how the other PPC are able to *not* have that tax thing mandatory for all their customers.

The way it is now i don't see how i could become a customer/affiliate partner of yours as i surely won't risk messing up my tax by putting in my tax ID where my government doesn't require (or even doesn't want) me to put it in.

Plus as it seems it's not even the US government that would require me (as a non US citizen) to give out my ID in this case; might be *you* require it so *you* don't get taxed but as said it's *your* responsibility to consult a tax consultant to ask for other ways to cover you.

Not something your customers should have to do.

[cayars]

I DO UNDERSTAND what your saying!

Yes a W8 or W9 is a US IRS (Internal Revenue Service) thing.

It's not about passing anything onto a customer BUT it IS ABOUT COVING MY OWN BACK.

In a "nutshell" if I (or any other US company) pays commissions to a person/company and doesn't have "the paperwork" then they could be liable if audited to pay the tax (at their own income level) on the commissions. The IRS treats the income as your own and not someone else's because they feel that since you don't have the proper "paperwork" it isn't a legitimit "expense" and therefore becomes "income".

I'm not about to start picking up thousands of dollars a month in "extra" taxes because a form or piece of paper is "to hard" to fill out when it's a requirement of all US businesses. I'm FIRM on this and not going to change this. HOWEVER, I'm trying to find a solution that is the EASIEST for any client to use (US or other country of origin). For many it's just filling in the tax field. For others it could be the PDF on online form for non US clients.

I understand you might be at several PPC companies. I am too. All the US company's have asked me for this information to get paid (Domain Sponsor, Gold Key, Active Audience, TrafficZ, Parked.com). Parked.com uses the online form version of the W8/W9 as I mentioned. Example from Parked.com website: "Complete your W-8 or W-9. By law we are required to have you fill out a w-8 or a w-9 form by the United States IRS. It's a simple form and should take you no longer than 2 minutes to complete. We can not pay you until we have this form filled out completely."

Obviously, ParkItNow.com isn't the only US company asking for this information. If there is a US parking company not asking for this, then shame on them!

There is no reason to limit my clients to US only. That's crazy! However, whenever people from different country's do business together there is always a tax/accounting liability that has to be handled.

So regardless of how any particular person feels about this, it isn't open for negotiation. I must have the tax id info from a W8 (or electronic equiv.) or a W9 form or equiv.

What I am trying to discuss is the BEST/EASIEST way to handle this for all involved. Is it really that big a deal to fill out an online W9 form ONE-TIME spending 2 or 3 minutes?

Again something that is out of my control is being blown out of proportion. My government says I MUST have the information therefore I MUST have the information! I'm trying to give choices for the best way to handle this and I'm getting critized for this??? CRAZY

[beatz]

No need to get upset - especially not at (potential) customers/partners.

Now let me quote you:

"It's not about passing anything onto a customer BUT it IS ABOUT COVING MY OWN BACK!"

LOL - Isn't that exactly what i am saying ?

It indeed is about covering your own back, not about ours.

And i do think you still don't understand.

You keep talking about why is it such a big deal filling out a form when i already told you that the problem is not the 5 minutes needed to fill out a form but more of

- putting in a tax ID where my government doesn't expect/want me to put it in
- risk of messing up my tax
- W8/W9 or whatever they are called are not known in my country

These are a few of the problems i'd be facing with putting in my tax ID.

Maybe the reason why the other PPC companies are asking you for W8 is because either you are a (registered ?) business, or a US citizen (?) or both ?

Nothing of that applies for me.

Another thing that might be different from country to country:

My government does not automatically consider what i'm doing to be a business per se - it all depends on how often do i make how much money in what time period.On that it depends if i have to have a business tax ID or not, if i have to fill in my personal tax ID somewhere or not etc.

Here's an idea - wouldn't invoices by your (non US) customers count as "the paperwork" as well ?

I'd have no problems with these as in my case i don't have to put in my tax ID there but still you'd have proof of it's not your income.

I still have no idea what a W8 is btw as i never had to deal with it just like i never had to deal with the IRS my entire life so why should i have to now ?

[cayars]

Sorry, I wasn't upset in the least. I wasn't "yelling" using the caps. I was just trying to convey that I DO understand.

If I'm not smart and cover "my back" then I could potentially get audited and have to pay MY government extra taxes. This would be "taxes" on money not earned by me. This could potentially, hurt or put me out of business. If the IRS was to freeze assets/moneys then it would hurt my customers also. So my diligence is to cover "my back" and "my customer's back" too.

OK, we both agree it's not a matter of a few minutes filling out a form. The real matter at hand is whether it is CORRECT to have to put a non US tax id in my system.

The issue is cloudy for some people, while crystal clear for other customers.

Unfortunately, because my business is in the US I have to do the minimal procedures to satisfy the IRS (Internal Revenue Service).

The IRS is quite clear on living or doing business in the US. I don't think any US citizen/customer is going to have issue with this or suppling the proper tax id.

But the IRS is not as clear as it should be for "foreign" customers.

Each country is handled differently depending on the "treaty" they have with the US. HOWEVER, 99% of the time this really should NOT affect me or my customers.

I'm currently working with a tax attorney to get this rectified as soon as possible. As it stands now it appears there will be 3 choices on my system for inputting tax info (if needed).

1) Any US citizen or person who does business in the US will need to fill out a W9 form. This is a standard tax form (very brief) that just about every person has filled out at one time or another. For the most part it's just suppling your SSN (social security number) or TIN (tax identification number) for a business and choosing if your an individual or type of business.

2) You are not a US citizen and DO NOT do business in the US. This also appears to be quite clear and will be the easiest of all to handle. There will most likely be an electronic "form" that the customer agrees to that basically says the above. No tax ID of any kind will be needed.

3) You are not a US citizen BUT DO business in the US. Depending on the circumstances an IRS form W-8BEN or 4233 may need to be filled out. Or yet another form or possibly a US tax ID may need to be gotten. The IRS is not crystal clear on this and this is the hold up for implementation at this point. Unfortunately, I do have a significant client base that does fall into this category but it is a small percentage of the overall customers.

What it looks like I'm going to implement is web page with the 3 choices on it. If the person is a US citizen or business they will be able to fill out an online W9. If the person is a foreign citizen and doesn't do business in the US then they we be able to "agree to that" online and be done (no tax ID needed). If they fall into the third category then I think instead of having an online form (could be many), I'll provide links to the IRS site where they can download the appropriate form and directions to fill it out. It can then be mailed or faxed back.

Obviously besides this cloudy third set of clients, everyone else should have a straight forward, FAST way of entering what they need to enter and there will be no tax id needed for group two.

Unfortunately, the invoice "paperwork" idea wouldn't work but will be moot for 99% of the clients anyway soon.

I am listening, leaning and trying to do the right thing! I just want to make sure we're "all covered" and that we'll all be around for a long time.

And to answer your last question. If you're a "foreign individual" then it does in fact appear that you shouldn't have to deal with the IRS at all.

Carlo

[beatz]

To have those 3 options available sounds like a good idea.

I think for instance in my case option 2 would be appropriate.

As for option 3 - i don't think non US citizens doing business in the US really are required to get a US tax ID; there must be another way than that because it really would be strange to have a tax ID of a country you are not a citizen of.

Btw - i just watched the "Freedom to Facism" film that has a thread here:

http://www.dnforum.com/thread178954.html

and that amongst other things sheds a light on the IRS, their ways and the question of legality of income tax in particular.

All this was new to me but now i kind of have a better idea of why US people seem to be so panic when it comes to the IRS - it looks like the IRS has more power than government and secret services combined to potentially destroy your life.

So now i can understand you apparently *have* to make sure you are covered a 100 % and not just 99%...

Anyway, good job - it seems you're near a solution !

[cayars]

I have the first two done already (via simple form) but I think the third is going to be a manual process. At least for now. This won't affect many people anyway.

You touched on the "tough" question. A non US business/individual may or may not need to get a US TIN (tax id number). I think the key to the IRS is that if you ARE DOING business in the US you should have a US tax id. Even then many won't have to do this but will probably need to fill out a W-8BEN on 4233 IRS form. I'll handle these on a case by case basis. Besides if the person is outside the US I probably would not know if they have US Activities or not. wink, wink (honor system)

The IRS is a "class" act alright (pun intended). I can't say I actually know anyone who likes them. I guess they're just a necessary evil. :(

Actually I have it all working right now. I just need to add a field to the registration database to track if the user has filled out one of the tax forms. Then I'll popup the new tax screen as soon as a user enters the backend and hasn't filled it out yet. They'll be able to bypass it, but it will come back every time they log in until it's filled out. This should put the whole thing to rest and make sure everyone gets paid on time. At least there won't be any surprises if someone keeps bypassing the screen but doesn't get paid on time.

Everything should be operational and live in an hour or two.

Carlo

[cayars]

It's LIVE now on the system. I didn't do the popup thing however as it got in the way to much. I did however add a bold red notice under every menu in the parking backend with a link to forms.

It should be a no-brainer now.

If anyone from ParkItNow would care to comment on the implementation I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Carlo