8 years - what do you think?

[acronym007]

Originally Posted by Carter

There are 100 new Saddam in the world today and they live in peace killing peoples all day.

Where is the "sheriff" Bush?

**** politics. All politics.

I agree, but not all are leaders of wealthy nations. Allot of these terrorist groups are fragmented which is good, when they are under one national umbrella and united you have Nazi Germany.

[jasdon11]

...

[acronym007]

Originally Posted by Carter

Hey man I don't hate Bush because he kill terrorist...I agree with this.
I hate him because he's an idiot.
But he's not the only idiot.

I think we can all agree he's made some mistakes but to argue with history I'd prefer not to do that. History is littered with good and bad people in high level positions. It took Kennedy to avoid the Cuban Missile Crisis. It took Bush Jr. to finish Saddam and it will take the next president to fix the economy.

[Doc Com]

It is actually self evident of the failed policies of this administration and it's obviousness to all nations.

I am reading other forums from other members across the globe who again have shown total disgust in this administration, akin to when he was re-elected.

Bush has given a thumbs down to what other nations think and more so to what the people of this nation think.

Anyone who believes that this was was anything more than oil and money driven is living under a rock.

The selection of Dick Cheney, the CEO of Haliburton, as VP said volumes of this administrations intent along with other members of poppa's staff.

The subsequent invasion of Iraq with a goal of securing the oil fields and the ports reveals all. Most importantly, the billions and billions of dollars awarded in no bid contracts to Haliburton should be a clue to those who are clueless. When outrage was expressed, front companies that were actually subsidiaries of Haliburton were set up.

To make matters worse and even more insulting, Haliburton will be (already has?) moving its world headquarters to Dubai to avoid having to pay taxes on yours and my tax money used to fund this war.

But it is not just the war issues that make this the worst eight years of American political history.

How about the appointment of Mr. Brown as director of FEMA? His qualifications were President of the American Quarter Horse Society.

And Gonzalez as attorney General? The person involved in the firing of state attorneys to replace with republicans? The person involved with attempting to extort the signature of his then boss to authorize surveillance while his boss was hopitalized and under the influence of medication? The person who advised Bush on the issuance of a pardon to all?

Bush has not only made a mockery of foreign affairs but has made a mockery of the highest office in this country and the Judicial Branch.

He has taken a surplus from day one and issued a refund against all advice. And he did the same thing this year when there was a deficit. He has bankrupted this country in the name of freedom while taking away freedom and civil liberties from its own citizens.

The entire Executive and Legislative branch needs a giant enema to clean house. We have been shit on so much for the past eight years that a little more won't hurt us.

[acronym007]

Since this has turned into a bash Bush thread and opinions don't matter, positive views are discounted, I'll step out, unsubscribe, and let you guys bash away.

Have a good day all.

[jasdon11]

Originally Posted by acronym007

Since this has turned into a bash Bush thread and opinions don't matter, positive views are discounted, I'll step out, unsubscribe, and let you guys bash away.

Have a good day all.

The thread was for anyone who thinks he is worth defending, to have a go....personally, I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire, but I'm open to hear why I should.

[Carter]

Originally Posted by acronym007

I think we can all agree he's made some mistakes but to argue with history I'd prefer not to do that. History is littered with good and bad people in high level positions. It took Kennedy to avoid the Cuban Missile Crisis. It took Bush Jr. to finish Saddam and it will take the next president to fix the economy.

I agree with you is not possible watch our history from an ethic point of view only.
Machiavelli teach us many centuries ago.
Money rule the world and the fear often is more strong than love.
This is the reality (but you can trying to change this ****ing reality).
I don't judge him for his "good or bad soul", we live in a real world so real peoples do real things.

The big problem of Bush is he said us lies from day one.
He don't have balls, he's an hypocrit and he said bullshit all the time.

People never forget this.

You can be a president, do bad things but stay real...he's only an hypocrit.

[nameslave]

Originally Posted by Doc Com

The UN has a law against war crimes and torture of prisoners, all of which Bush has already granted a presidential pardon to himself and his entire administration.

That's the Geneva Conventions, which have been signed by basically all countries on earth.

It's a SHAME (yes, a HUGE SHAME) that the Bush Administration actually dare to come up with newspeak like "enemy combatants" in order to justify their violation of human rights.

I just hope when this W character is apprehended one day for war crime, he will not be able to evade conviction like Pinochet did.

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by nameslave

That's the Geneva Conventions, which have been signed by basically all countries on earth.

It's a SHAME (yes, a HUGE SHAME) that the Bush Administration actually dare to come up with newspeak like "enemy combatants" in order to justify their violation of human rights.

I just hope when this W character is apprehended one day for war crime, he will not be able to evade conviction like Pinochet did.

It won't happen -- Bush recently PARDONED HIMSELF for this crime. I'm NOT kidding - he is the first president to pardon himself, and it's the first pardon for a crime BEFORE an arrest.

[DomainsInc]

I think there are certain things about Bush that will come out in a year or two after he leaves office that will "shock" people, even moreso.

I am glad Saddam is gone but like others have said, it was one guy and certaintly not the worst guy and there are plenty of dictators/murderers that the US openly works with instead of fighting.

[jasdon11]

Originally Posted by JuniperPark

It won't happen -- Bush recently PARDONED HIMSELF for this crime. I'm NOT kidding - he is the first president to pardon himself, and it's the first pardon for a crime BEFORE an arrest.

Seriously, is this true?

[meganerd]

There are people who would debate that our country is more secure now than 8 years ago. However, I think we ended up pissing a bunch of people off and alienating a few allies. So, IMO, while we did tighten down and buckle up on a few things, we've gained new enemies in the meantime.

Originally Posted by jasdon11

So, over the last 8 years of Bush rule, what do you think?

Is America safer now than it was 8 years ago?

Is the World safer?

Are you more affluent?

Do you think that the short term future is looking rosy?

Do you think the mid to long term is looking rosy?

Are you living in fear from; personal attack; terrorism; financial issues; your kids safety?

If Bush was eligible to be re-elected, would you vote for him?

Do you feel the US Government is as strong an institution as it was 8 years ago?

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by acronym007

I think we can all agree he's made some mistakes but to argue with history I'd prefer not to do that. History is littered with good and bad people in high level positions. It took Kennedy to avoid the Cuban Missile Crisis. It took Bush Jr. to finish Saddam and it will take the next president to fix the economy.

Speaking of Cuba and the Bush's. Are you aware that Bush Sr owned Zapata Offshore Drilling which was based on an island between the US and Cuba during that time. Bush Sr denies having been in the CIA prior to his being named CIA Director. Doesn't it seem odd that someone be named the head of such an agency without being involved in it? There were lots of scandalous activities that went on during that time. I'm not going to go into all of the various theories but the most verifiable one is that JFK and Hoover were trying to dismantle the CIA prior to his assassination. Hmm Oil and a weapons crisis. Makes one wonder.

[Acro]

http://wthefilm.com

[sdsinc]

Evil characters like bush/cheney are not rare in modern history, what is interesting is to study how nations collectively get rid off such rulers.

Milosevic did behave in a similar way a decade ago.
The Serbs were lied to and dragged into disastrous war adventures.
In the end the Serbs woke up and did the right thing: Milosevic was toppled and flown to the Hague. The Americans should do the same but do they have the guts to admit they've been conned for 8 years ?

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by acronym007

Who said it did? I will repeat since people can't read.... The world is better without Saddam in it.

Really?

Saddam's big crime is that he killed a lot of citizens, but Bush has killed almost 3 times as many Iraqi people as Saddam did.

Saddam was hated because he tortured people. Then Bush tortures people at Guatanamo, and we now know that about 93% of them were innocent -- it seems the US paid a 'bounty' to tribesmen, and they turned in people they didn't like for huge piles of cash, and we tortured them.

Saddam was hated because he took the people's tax money and build mansions. Bush took over the same mansions, and is now spending $60 million dollars to UPGRADE THOSE SAME MANSIONS with more pools, spas, and luxury rooms.

So if hanging is the right punishment for Saddam's actions, what is the right punishment for Bush?

[Doc Com]

Allow me to say I was never conned because I never bought into the bullshit.

The invasion of Afghanistan was warranted with the Taliban in power. We had a clear target and enemy to pursue.

The Taliban were slaughtering their own people and destroying their own culture. All that was, in their minds, blasphemous was destroyed including schools, media, and millenium old art and relics of the culture that can never be replaced.

It was a suppressive regime with known training camps for terrorists and a safe haven. Kashmir became their live-fire training ground.

Once we took our eye off our objective, all was lost. Perhaps the biggest strategic mistake and blunder in centuries.

[jasdon11]

Originally Posted by Doc Com

Allow me to say I was never conned because I never bought into the bullshit.

The invasion of Afghanistan was warranted with the Taliban in power. We had a clear target and enemy to pursue.

The Taliban were slaughtering their own people and destroying their own culture. All that was, in their minds, blasphemous was destroyed including schools, media, and millenium old art and relics of the culture that can never be replaced.

It was a suppressive regime with known training camps for terrorists and a safe haven. Kashmir became their live-fire training ground.

Once we took our eye off our objective, all was lost. Perhaps the biggest strategic mistake and blunder in centuries.

Doc, the US funded the Taliban for years during the Cold War. They were still the evil pricks they are now.

[JMJ]

Saddam didn't even use gasses on his own people intentionally.

"This much about the gassing at Halabja we undoubtedly know: it came about in the course of a battle between Iraqis and Iranians. Iraq used chemical weapons to try to kill Iranians who had seized the town, which is in northern Iraq not far from the Iranian border. The Kurdish civilians who died had the misfortune to be caught up in that exchange. But they were not Iraq's main target.

And the story gets murkier: immediately after the battle the United States Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report, which it circulated within the intelligence community on a need-to-know basis. That study asserted that it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds, not Iraqi gas.

The agency did find that each side used gas against the other in the battle around Halabja. The condition of the dead Kurds' bodies, however, indicated they had been killed with a blood agent -- that is, a cyanide-based gas -- which Iran was known to use. The Iraqis, who are thought to have used mustard gas in the battle, are not known to have possessed blood agents at the time. "

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...52C0A9659C8B63


I'm still searching for the link on this one but ALL of the Taliban leaders were flown out of Afghanistan on US carriers before we invaded. Take a guess where they were flown. Pakistan, you know where we're having a problem with the Taliban on the boarders of there and Afghanistan.

"According to the magazine, the US allowed Pakistan's military officials to be flown to safety to preserve the political standing of General Pervez Musharraf, whose survival is seen as crucial to the American war effort.

The exodus - which the administration insisted at the time had not taken place - was intended only to rescue Pakistani officials from Kunduz, which was surrounded by Northern Alliance troops backed by American forces.

But the New Yorker's defence correspondent, Seymour Hersh, quotes a senior intelligence source as saying that Taliban and al-Qaida fighters slipped on board. "Everyone brought their friends with them," a defence adviser told him.

The US military may even have directly co-operated in the airlifts, according to the article, which is based on conversations with intelligence officials and senior military officers. Two such sources told Hersh that the US central command was ordered to establish a special air corridor to guarantee that the rescue flights could proceed safely. "

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002...fghanistan.usa


http://www.opinionjournal.com/column...n/?id=95001523

http://books.google.com/books?id=Awg...um=9&ct=result