Conservative in the US vs Conservative in other Countries.

[Infoproliferati]

Anyone willing to share conservative perspectives or beliefs from his/her country? I'd like to make comparisons with conservatism in the US.

[Raider]

I'd like to make comparisons with conservatism in the US.

So you can mock conservatism?

I don't think your going to get many takers in this thread, not from true conservatives that is.

[Bill Roy]

I am a Conservative here in the UK, I have always voted Conservative, the other options are a bunch of wanna-be socialists (wanna-be millionaires generally) or a middle of the road party who just want to try and be popular, trying to please everyone and their policies end up pleasing no-one.

The Conservatives here in the UK would fit very well generally within the centre and right of the Democratic Party in the US, perhaps 1/4 - 1/3 would be left of the Republican Party. I am one of those who would fit in fairly well within the Democratic Party I feel. Perhaps the best example of the difference between UK Conservatives and some Republicans is the news released about Palin's proposed upcoming visit to London. Palin's 'people' had let it be known that Palin wanted to meet with Margeret Thatcher (our ex-Prime Minister), the request was blatantly turned down with the statement that Palin 'is a nut!' (This is from the most Conservative post WWII Prime Minister we have had and a close political associate of Ronald Reagan.)

[Infoproliferati]

Lol Palin wanted to meet with Magaret Thatcher? Now she's looking to export her brand of misinformation and purport her "relevance" on the British people? WTF!!! This woman doesn't even have the decency to stay within her own borders.

Hey Bill, what are some fundamentally conservative beliefs in the UK? And how is Mr. Cameron doing? Plus in the UK is the Economist considered a conservative paper? If it is by American standards it would be center-left leaning.

[Bill Roy]

Info, the Conservatives here in the UK are a wide 'family' just like Republicans and Democrats in the States, so there is movement on all issues as to importance, but generally I think the following can be taken as a widespread base philosophy.

- Belief in the free market or capitalism. This does not mean unfettered or unrestricted practices, but rather that one should be able to earn from your own labour the value of that labour, whether it is as a plumber, cleaner, factory worker, office worker, actor, sportsman/woman, journalist, company manager, company owner, whatever you are. However you must earn it by fair means, with a responsibilty to society (this therefore excludes thieves and other criminals).

- Belief in the country, and recognising it as of prime loyalty above any alien concept. This though does not mean that wrong can be done to other nations without due reason, it is a belief that is framed in the general idea of 'fair play' (this may seem a bit nannyish but there is really no other way to describe it succintly - or at least I do not have the ability to). The solid belief that we are a sovereign nation.

- A belief in responsibility to your neighbours and society in general, though this is not controlled by statute law, rather it is a personal belief that one should act when called upon either individually or as a group or as society in general.

- A disdain of government regulation controlling how people should think or act. A freedom that the majority should rule but not at the 'expense' of the minority, that indeed all should be treated fairly and equally and subject to the same laws.

- That the rich should pay a higher percentage of tax compared to the poor, BUT that it should not be punitive that would actually reduce the government income by forcing the successful to leave the country.

It is actually quite hard to equate in language without giving set examples, and of course for every example that were given there would be numerous footnotes explaining why that example applied and another did not. I will give some time to this matter this evening and post again tomorrow a fuller and more thought out reply if that is OK.

With regards to the Economist magazine I should firstly say that they (the magazine) makes it clear that they are not affiliated with any one party over here, though it is evident that because they are a magazine concerned mainly with business and economics that it is regarded as a 'Conservative' publication. It does not though surprise me that is is regaarded as a 'liberal' magazine in the States, furthermore perhaps this demonstrates that UK 'Conservatives' are generally on a par with US 'Democrats'.

Cameron is actually doing fairly well over here at the moment. Nobody likes the policies that he is having to lead the Government in following, the Socialists (Labour Party) and Unions are screaming because of cuts, but in real terms the cuts are much less than those in other countries. But the truth is that without following these policies we would be heading on a path the same as the PIGS nations (Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Spain). The fact is that we were left in such a financial mess by the last Government (one Minister even left a note to his successor wishing him luck because all the money had gone) that the majority of people realise that there is little alternative to what our present government are doing. The thing is though that we are smaller and without the resources (natural and fiscal) of the US.

The political parallels between the US and UK is that both present governments inherited a total financial mess from the previous incumbents and a disasterous outlook that both have had to take painful steps to remedy them. Surprisingly both governments remain quite popular and it looks like both could be re-elected (US in 2012 and UK in 2015) despite the economic woes both countries have and are facing. What is also amazing is that the opposition in both our countries is being marginalised by their respective extremist wings, the Republicans by the Tea Party and the Labour Party by the Unions, this is actually making them both less agreeable to the populace as a whole. (Please note that Unions in the Uk are by far much more socialist {read in some instances 'Communist'} than those in the US.)

As I have said above I will give some more thought to what 'Conservatism' here in the UK is and how it can be expressed best and post again tomorrow.

[Infoproliferati]

Great post Bill. A lot of invaluable insight. Much appreciated.

Conservs in the UK seem to have a belief system driven by humanity and practicality. In the US such conservatives are too few

[Raider]

I am a Conservative here in the UK,

And I'm the Queen of England

[Gerry]

Remember, if you are not a US citizen or not physically located in the US, you are FORBIDDEN by decree from Mother Eva, Sanctus Domainus...you are forbidden to have, develop, contemplate, express, or write about the United States.

You are forbidden to openly criticize any current or former U.S. elected officials and your expression against U.S. policy of any manner shall be considered blasphemy and constitute eternal damnation.

Those not reading, studying, reciting, memorizing, preaching, or crusading the script and cause in alignment with and conforming to her hallowed sanctified scriptures and gospel shall be denied access to the deity (ies) that she represents, supports, honors, worships, dreams of, or fantasize about.

All decisions and punishment are final and shall not be open to appeal or reversal discussion by her holiness.

Ye shall be thrown into the depths of hell that make up the gray matter in her cranium.

[Bill Roy]

Remember, if you are not a US citizen or not physically located in the US, you are FORBIDDEN by decree from Mother Eva, Sanctus Domainus...you are forbidden to have, develop, contemplate, express, or write about the United States.

You are forbidden to openly criticize any current or former U.S. elected officials and your expression against U.S. policy of any manner shall be considered blasphemy and constitute eternal damnation.

Those not reading, studying, reciting, memorizing, preaching, or crusading the script and cause in alignment with and conforming to her hallowed sanctified scriptures and gospel shall be denied access to the deity (ies) that she represents, supports, honors, worships, dreams of, or fantasize about.

All decisions and punishment are final and shall not be open to appeal or reversal discussion by her holiness.

Ye shall be thrown into the depths of hell that make up the gray matter in her cranium.

Doc, was you referring to Raider or Palin? (Or of course both!)

Raider, so you think I am not a Conservative here in the UK? Please have a look at the flag under my user name. Go back through all my posts and tell me I am not a Conservative.

As per usual Raider, you talk a load of b*ll*cks. If you wish to accuse me then at least do your research first. (Ah yes, I see your problem, what I refer to as 'research' is a term used referring to finding information out without bias and/or without agenda of selecting only evidence that supports a pre-concieved held opinion, belief, or otherwise desired outcome based not on weighing all the evidence impartially and on the evidences own merits.)

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 PM ----------

And I'm the Queen of England

And to think I have sworn an oath to Her Majesty, and her heirs. If you were the Queen of England I would have to live with the fact that I would immediately break my oath - something I have never done!

[Gerry]

Shut up! Even though the OP asked for your opinions you are NOT ALLOWED to offer any opinions!

[Acro]

Conservatives in Greece are more to the left than Liberals in the US. However, the Socialists are currently going through a phase of extreme anti-social rule that even Conservatives in the US would be envious of!

[Bill F.]

Conservatives in Greece are more to the left than Liberals in the US.

And it has been working so well!

@Infoproliferati- Funny, I find that "humanity and practicality" are particularly lacking on the left side of the spectrum not the right. ("Liberal" is a misnomer for the left, who are by definition controlling and usually in favor of more laws to empower the government over the individual.)

As for comparing conservatives from the US with others, such as those in the UK - it would help to have some understanding of the US conservatives to start with. What you are really comparing is what somebody tells you UK conservatism is with your own colored perception of what US conservatism is.

[Bill Roy]

As for comparing conservatives from the US with others, such as those in the UK - it would help to have some understanding of the US conservatives to start with. What you are really comparing is what somebody tells you UK conservatism is with your own colored perception of what US conservatism is.

Domainace is that not why we discuss such matters, we learn by interaction and debate surely? Can you give a better solution to understanding anything as diverse as varying national politics within different nations?

[Gerry]

it would help to have some understanding of the US conservatives to start with. What you are really comparing is what somebody tells you UK conservatism is with your own colored perception of what US conservatism is.

Then start by defining conservativism in the US. What is it, where it has been, where it is now, and where it is going. I am dying to know what other people's definition is of conversativism 50, 30, 20, 10 years ago, the present, and the very short foreseeable future.

[Bill F.]

Domainace is that not why we discuss such matters, we learn by interaction and debate surely? Can you give a better solution to understanding anything as diverse as varying national politics within different nations?

Of course discussion is a great way to learn, but many discussions are simply mass onanism (Palin is stupid, tea partiers are racist) and are simply people reinforcing their own prejudices. Just because someone is called inhumane and impractical in a soothing faux-empirical tone doesn't make it any less ignorant or insulting. Likewise, simply because someone speaks with an unpolished dialect or mannerisms, that doesn't mean their ideas are less valid. Personally I am sick of the sophistry that works so easily in current US politics. Bill (that's my name too), your opinion is fine, as is everyone else's, but the OP asked specifically for a definition of "conservative" from countries other than the US, implying that he had US conservatives all figured out - and that is obviously not the case.

@Doc Com
That's a great idea. In fact, why not define liberalism as well? Because, personally, I see myself as a liberal, but the word has been hijacked by extremists. (Where have I heard that before??)

I am for allowing as much individual liberty as possible without complete chaos ensuing. I believe that governments are an unpleasant necessity, but that they must be watched and heavily restricted to prevent their natural inclination towards seeking absolute power. I am certainly against governments taking over functions of family and society. That's not because I don't want to help people, but because governments use sympathy as a tool to gain power and reduce the rights of their subjects. On top of that, unlike families and societies, governments are unable to determine who needs help and who is simply freeloading. On top of that, they are unable to deliver the help in even a remotely efficient manner, and the money that goes to pay for this inefficiency is removed from the economy, costing jobs and creating more people who must then turn to the government for "help." This continues until the government is the patron of the majority, while the minority in the productive sector are increasingly forced to bear the full load. There are many other reasons I could go into, but I shouldn't be killing time in this thread as it is.

I think the left tends to look for fascism in the wrong places. Yes, some religious right want to impose their views on the entire country. Most don't. And even for those who do, they show no signs of having any success at it. Meanwhile, the right of free speech is being eroded ("hate crimes," for one) and the left steadily encroaches on the right granted in the constitution (which I specifically heard Obama say on a radio interview is something that stands in the way of "progress" - well before his election).

Without going into a history of it, I see current US conservatism as an expression of the individual against the state. (Which seems classically liberal to me.) Are there hypocrites and other loonies that call themselves conservative. Of course, just as there are hypocrites and loonies who call themselves liberal.

I am an American, but haven't been a resident for over 20 years. The country scares the hell out of me. It has become a police state, and (much more frighteningly) it seems most people haven't even noticed. Americans always talk about rights and freedom without ever thinking about what those words mean. The solution is in the problem, I think. Spending will continue out of control until the debased value of the currency finally means the government is forced to scale back. Considering the stridency of political language, and the ever increasing use of police and legal mechanisms to enforce policy and opinions, I am afraid the change won't be pretty. The infrastucture and education have been ignored for too long, and Asia is scaling up. Much political debate is wasted on peripheral social issues, while the essentials of survival are ignored.

I see the tea party as the best hope in the country - though I agree that many of it's members are hypocrites who themselves rely on govt payouts. But at least the rhetoric is right, and that's more than the rest have.

Sorry if that was more if a rant than a definition - that's why I try to avoid these discussions!

[Infoproliferati]

Acro made a good point about Greek conservatives leaning more to the left than Liberals in the US. Can someone shed more light on this?

@Domainace I don't agree. The introduction of "more" laws in a state doesn't suggest a liberal desire to empower government. It is the type of law that matters.

As far as me having a "colored" perception of conservatism in the US, all I know is conservatism today isn't what it used to be 50+ years ago. I think this new type of conservatism in the Republican party that champions ideology over pragmatism started during the Reagan years. Like Bill and Doc suggest, surely, you wouldn't mind enlightening us on US conservatism.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 PM ----------

@ Domainace I'll readily admit I don't have conservatives all figured out. It's just that the real conservatives out there seem to be drowned by the other loonies or aren't speaking up. I like Ron Paul, Chris Christie and McCain. Mind you I don't agree with a lot they say but I'll vote for them over a dodgy liberal.

Is US conservatism what I see on Fox News? If it is then I'm sorely disappointed.

[Bill F.]

@Domainace I don't agree. The introduction of "more" laws in a state doesn't suggest a liberal desire to empower government. It is the type of law that matters.

Laws, by definition, empower the enforcers. In 99% of the cases, that's the government. In the US in particular, people seem to have lost the distinction between law and daily life. Tell me, what recent laws have empowered you?

...
I don't watch much Fox news, so I couldn't say. If the loonies are drowning out the sensible voices, I would guess that's because the media chooses to highlight the loonies. What I have seen of Fox is that they aren't that different from the other entertainment providers who call themselves news networks. For an example of someone who really impresses me, look at Marco Rubio, though I don't know enough about him. Heck, I like any politician who actually has principles of any kind and isn't afraid to be honest about them. Even if we disagree, then at least we can have a conversation.

[Raider]

Raider, so you think I am not a Conservative here in the UK? Please have a look at the flag under my user name. Go back through all my posts and tell me I am not a Conservative.

As per usual Raider, you talk a load of b*ll*cks. If you wish to accuse me then at least do your research first. (Ah yes, I see your problem, what I refer to as 'research' is a term used referring to finding information out without bias and/or without agenda of selecting only evidence that supports a pre-concieved held opinion, belief, or otherwise desired outcome based not on weighing all the evidence impartially and on the evidences own merits.)!

"Look at my Flag" Raider, "I'm a Conservative"... This sounds just as asinine as Doc telling us he's a registered Republican.. "I Doc Dumb Ass am a Registered Republican therefore my opinions of the Republican party are 100% certifiably objective". Who do you think your kidding?

Research? I don't have to research anything, I've read enough of your Liberal bullsh*t on this forum for the past 3 years to know your nothing but a left wing nut job.. What kind of conservative rips into the Tea Party movement every chance he gets? A Grassroots movement that is both Conservative and Libertarian, A movement of Independents, true democrats and Republicans that promote reducing federal spending, reducing the size of Government, repealing unnecessary Government programs and balancing our budget, And you and Doc Dumb Ass mock these people?..

What kind of conservative praises nationalizing health care against the will of it's people behind closed doors? What kind of conservative supports a man who CAN"T balance a budget and added $4 TRILLION to our debt in only 18 months?

Your NO conservative, NOT by any definition.... You say your much like Democrats in they USA, but you fail to realize that most Democrats in the USA are actually Liberals and don't have a conservative bone in their body, Not all, but the majority. Your not even a Blue Dog Democrat.

Now JFK was a true Democrat, I think most will agree on that... If he were alive today many would regard him as a moderate Republican, Democrats are no longer the Democrats they once were, they've been moving further to the left with every passing decade... Same with Republicans, they've moved to the left as well and now call themselves "Moderates".... This is the major reason why the Tea Party evolved, because voters of both parties are disenchanted with their own party, they feel they've been abandoned and I cant blame them.

And it has been working so well!

Good one!

Maybe Acro can start a donation drive on DomainGang to repay the IMF for bailing out his home country.


Excellent posts my friend, very well written... I enjoyed reading every word of it.

It's always refreshing to see a difference of opinion OTHER than from the radical left.

[Acro]

A true multi-party system - unlike in the US - offers various options over a bipartisan, and thus, polarized political system. Most European nations are this way, with parties that range from the far left to the center to the far right (sometimes, extreme right).

Regarding the pseudo-socialists that run Greece currently, having sold the country to the IMF, what can I say: expect some of them to leave the country at night, before the "Bastille" is up in flames.

[Raider]

I like Ron Paul, Chris Christie and McCain. Mind you I don't agree with a lot they say but I'll vote for them over a dodgy liberal.

What are you talking about? you voted for Obama in the last election didn't you?

Regarding the pseudo-socialists that run Greece currently, having sold the country to the IMF, what can I say: expect some of them to leave the country at night, before the "Bastille" is up in flames.

In many ways Greece is like California, both are being bailed out by US tax payers... Bail us out of our $20 Billion dollar shortfall while we pay for 100K + pensions of Government employees who sit on their asses all day and take vacations, Free medical care under 65 included.