Eurosceptism, Europe & the Brits.

[Infoproliferati]

Why are the Brits skeptical when it comes to dealing with mainland Europe? The Economist put out an article prior to the British PM elections this year discussing "Eurosceptism". The paper mentioned that eurosceptism is strongest in Britain than any other european country. Actually eurosceptism began in Britain.

Margaret Thatcher famously said: "During my lifetime most of the problems the world has faced have come, in one fashion or other, from mainland Europe, and the solutions from outside it." Is this how all Brits feel?

The French, Spanish and Germans call eurosceptism a "British disease". Why is the lack of faith in the rest of Europe ingrained in the minds of Brits? Does it have to do with history, politics, economics or just the old British national habit of staying away from anything it doesn't understand?

[Bill Roy]

Info, yes it is the 'general' British position that Europe is 'something different', but then again just because we are right does not mean it is a 'disease'!

Us Brits, with regard to Europe, have the great advantage of looking from the outside in, and this in itself gives us a clearer picture, unlike the Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, Belgiums, Poles, Czechs, Slovakians, Hungarians, Bulgarians, Romanians, Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, FInns, Swedes, Norwegians, Greeks, Turks, Albanians, a multitude of nationalities formerly Yugoslavs, Ukranians, Belo-Russians, etc., etc., etc.. Of course the Irish are also on the outside looking in and they saw that being a small country they could benefit from 'being in' Europe, but then they changed their minds in a referendum on the European Constitution - guess what, Europe would not accept their decision and made them have another referendum (with the threat of even more if they still rejected the Treaty).

Europe is nothing but a joke, and more and more europeans are seeing it as such as well. Europe is just a geographical concept, it is a continent, nothing more and nothing less.

I wonder how many Germans feel they are getting a good deal now from Europe that they are having to pay the retirement pensions of Greeks (who as I understand it retire earlier than Germans)?

Europe, or the EU to put it correctly, is one massive money hole of a joke.

Oh by the way, I am a moderate about Europe.

Finally, just to correct you, here in the UK we 'Brits' do not elect a PM (Prime Minister), we elect MP's (Members of Parliament) in a General Election, the Party with the largest number of MP's generally forms the Government and it is usually the leader of that Party that becomes Prime Minister. Seems a rather sensible way of doing things to us Brits.

[Infoproliferati]

Finally, just to correct you, here in the UK we 'Brits' do not elect a PM (Prime Minister), we elect MP's (Members of Parliament) in a General Election, the Party with the largest number of MP's generally forms the Government and it is usually the leader of that Party that becomes Prime Minister. Seems a rather sensible way of doing things to us Brits.

Thanks for clearing that up. I followed the elections wondering why having a hung parliament was such a big deal. It makes sense now.

Do the Tories have any positive ideas on how to build a stronger bond with Europe? I understand this was one of the tough questions during the debates.

[Bill Roy]

Info, the only Party who is really (the vast majority of them) European in outlook is the Liberal Democrats (the smaller of the Parties in the coalition). The Conservative Party (Tories as you call them) (the vast majority of them) are Euro-sceptic, with some bordering on hostile, though sme are Euro-friendly. The Labour Party (should be called Socialists in your 'Tory' phrasology) are also mainly Euro-sceptic (the majority of them), though again some are Euro-friendly.

The reason that the last lying, cheating, deceiving, Labour Prime Minister and Government did not hold a referendum on the European Union Constitution Treaty was because they knew it would be rejected by us 'Brits', so even though they promised the country a referendum they broke their word (now isn't that a surprise - from a governement who knowingly lied to our Parliament and the people and led us into a war and sent our service men and women to die by not supplying them with the right equipment). Given this it is hardly surprising that the Conservative Party does not hold any real policies to uunite more with Europe, after all they are only reflecting how the vast majority of us 'Brits' feel.

(You may gather by the way that I am not a Labour supporter and never have been! )

Europe is a disconnected conglomeration of peoples, it is in essence a smaller version of the UN. The underlining principles sound absolutely great in academic debate, however, when you start dealing with such diverse groupings, many with diametrically opposite views on so many issues it becomes ungovernable as a unit. There is no basic principles that unite as a firm foundation the entity that is European Union (or Europe). As outsiders looking in we see all the disputes and double dealing occurring within the EU, and we do not want to be a part of the mess. The Conservative Party realises this and therefore sensibly feels no need to take a pro-European stance.

[PRED]

i can answer that question in one
we are an island nation

mainland europe are used to having neighbours, right on their doorstep

we just like to twitch the net curtains, LOL

seriously, i love europe, best place on earth imho. has everything. however the idea of a united europe was good, and is good. but they're letting in anyone. i don't mean that arrogantly, but eventually the countries with dubious humanitarian rights issues and screwed economies are going to bring the house of cards down

there needs to be a referendum, if theres not i would say it warrants a mini revolution. lets see if the brits have the stomach for that

if it goes to referendum it will not get voted through

again. sounds like i'm very pessimistic but i truly love europe and the varierty of cultures and languages and people
i used to drive all over europe and one of the things i use to love was having pockets full of different currencies and having to know a tiny bit of every language to get by

first the euro (which i always knew was wildly overvalued) and next they'll have everyone speaking english or german or both
ironically this 'uniting' will result in ethnic cleansing. ie. doing away with traditions, currencies, languages etc

variety is the spice of life!
keep it that way

[Infoproliferati]

Interesting stuff Bill and Pred.

Given that the Brits feel this way about Europe, why is the UK still a part of the EU? The original referendum was for joining the EEC to encourage trading. But over the years the other influential EU parties included new economic requirements which weren't part of the original. Now the UK is forced to adhere to new trading policies which don't seem to be in its favor. It is understandable that the UK may not want to alienate the EU but wouldn't it be better for the UK not to be a part of this EU debacle? Of course economic trading between the UK and the EU is even more imperative today than before but if the UK doesn't threaten to leave how else will it get what is good for the Brits?

[Bill Roy]

Info, below is a link that may help - it is actually very informative and comes from a television series called 'Yes Minister' - perhaps very true to life and how 'Brits' think.

Link 1

For anybody who wants to try and understand us 'Brits' then perhaps watching this programe and those from 'Yes Prime Minister' would be a good place to start.

[Seraphim]

Euroscepticism seems to be spreading like wild fire here in Poland right now, and particularly amongst Poles who have traveled and worked extensively in Western Europe [much to my surprise]. Apparently quite a number of Polish folk are ill-at-ease with what they've seen in their time abroad, and are hopeful Poland won't be governed/modeled in the same fashion.

[Infoproliferati]

The clip on foreign policy is brilliant. I had to watch 4 or 5 times before I could fully understand what he meant by "The Foreign Office is pro-Europe because it is really anti-Europe." It seems Britain was never really fond of mainland Europe anyway.

But now that Euroscepticism* (just realized I'd been referring to as Eurosceptism) is already spreading beyond the borders into other European countries, wouldn't this be dangerous for the EU?

I couldn't resist posting this on the clip on Who reads the papers?
"The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country. The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country. The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country. The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country. The Financial Times is read by the people who own the country. The Morning Star is read by the people who think the country ought to be run by another country. The Daily Telegraph is read by the people who think it is...

...The Sun readers don't care who runs the country as long as she has got big tits."

I almost choked with laughter.

[Bill Roy]

Info, glad you liked it.

Seriously the programs were/are so popular because it is taking the truth and making fun of ourselves, something that does seem to be generally a trait in the British character (if there is such a thing).

I will discuss more later but have to go at the moment.