The fate of the EU

[Infoproliferati]

What are the consequences for the EU assuming Germany refuses to bail out Greece, Italy or the French banks? And how would this affect global markets? I'll appreciate any insight.

[elmago]

Well, there will be different consequences for the EU and for the eurozone (the group of countries using the euro). The consequences for the EU are hard to predict, but are universally bad; the only question is how bad. If Germany doesn't bail out those banks and countries, the eurozone is in danger of collapsing or shrinking to include only northern countries (which will lead to a euro depreciation in the short term, but an appreciation in the long term because the euro will be mainly used by a club of stronger economies).

Anyway, I think the eurozone is almost certain to shrink eventually; the economies that currently make up the eurozone are exposed to too many different types of shocks for a monetary union to work without a fiscal union. With all their differences and with the damage the Euro project has taken during this crisis, stuffing all the EU member countries into a kind of European Federation that's both a fiscal and monetary union has a minimal chance of happening.

In the short term, if there's no bailout, the consequences for global markets are particularly bad because a high probability of default in formerly safe assets will make investors much more hesitant to lend, which will make it harder on average to get funding, which will slow down the global recovery (or what there is of it).

[Infoproliferati]

Thanks Elmago. Now that you mention the fiscal aspect, I have a better understanding. Are EU high officials in favor of the eurozone shrinking? Or does perception suggest they are at least acting with that intent? I imagine Germany must be very bitter given its predicament.

[ilovedomains]

The day the euro fails will be a holocast and nuclear winter for bankers and wealthy investors in every country. Life will not be worth living. If your already broke and have no job it will just be Thursday. If you see a banker wandering around in a daze you will just smile and say "welcome to my world".

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

Thanks Elmago. Now that you mention the fiscal aspect, I have a better understanding. Are EU high officials in favor of the eurozone shrinking? Or does perception suggest they are at least acting with that intent? I imagine Germany must be very bitter given its predicament.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2010/05/18/...-it-%e2%80%9d/

Luxembourg’s prime minister, Jean-Claude Juncker explains the problem in a nutshell: “We all know what to do, but we don’t know how to get re-elected once we have done it.”

[Adam Dicker]

Why does Greece need a bailout and why are countries thinking of setting a bad precedent by bailing them out?

Just curious.

Adam

[RobM]

Actually it's Germany that needs to withdraw. The other countries are more or less balanced amongst themselves but nobody is able to achieve the current high standards of the German economy. A German withdrawal, and a return to the Deutschemark, would balance Europe and avoid it's total disintegration.

[Gerry]

Why does Greece need a bailout and why are countries thinking of setting a bad precedent by bailing them out?

Just curious.

Adam

Part of the problem, listening to NPR, is a full 10% of Greece's population work for the state (country) and retirement age was something like age 50. So you have that many people retired at such a young age receiving a full pension over decades of government employment where over 40% of their entire national GDP goes just to pay for the government workers. This does not include the military. This is civilian government employees.

[Bill Roy]

Adam, put simply, the Eurozone was (is) a political experiment in financial amalgamation between various members of the EU. To achieve as wide a support for political integration as possible the Europhiles within the EU (those who could best be described as 'Federalists') implemented a joint currency (1999) to replace individual national currencies. This was partially successful initially when the world was being funded by easy credit, after all the initial members all had relatively strong economies. Then subsequently other nations including Greece applied or were required to join the Eurozone. Greece joined in 2001.

The main problem with Greece is that they purposefully 'cooked the books' to make their economy seem stronger and therefore appeared to satisfy the national financial requirements to join. Of course some pointed out the Greek economy was not truly represented by the fiscal reports from Greece, but these people were either shouted down or just plain ignored by the europhiles who just wanted all european countries to be controlled within a federation. Then of course along comes 2008 and the credit crunch, suddenly the financial world had changed, and Greece and other eurozone nations that had the most unsustainable economies started suffering the most. For Greece who had used 'cooked books' the hit has been the hardest. Other nations in severe trouble are Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland, and there is a possibility that France may well be sucked down as well.

With the above in mind now Greece does not have the fiscal resources to meet its current national debt repayments, this will mean that the Greek government will have to default on repaying loans and its state employees and social security benefits such as pensions. If (I personally think it is rather 'when') Greece does default then this will have a critical knock on effect on the other countries listed above, and this will undoubtedly result in European financial meltdown including such as Germany.

Now many world banks have loaned to the countries listed, this includes of course the US and China. Defaults will have major impacts on the balance sheets of these countries immediately as lending dries up but also on exports to these countries and others from around the world who will likewise be affected. Could you imagine the Chinese economy for instance receding 5-10% in a single year because of this and what possible impact that could have on the world (politically, financially, and possibly militarily)? It would be a catastrophic international knock on effect world-wide. Canada, the US, the UK, and others who did not bring this about are going to be hurt terribly unless a solution is found. Unfortunately at the moment it seems the only solution that will delay the tsunami is to bail out Greece, so we are all likely to suffer because of idiotic idealists and crooked politicians who dreamt up and forced the Euro in as a multi-national currency.

Should we as non-Eurozone countires bail out Greece (actually that is bail out the Eurozone countries as a whole)? No.

We should in my own personal opinion 'lend' to the Eurozone the money it needs and will be able to repay, but not to Greece, not to Italy, or to any other of the countries involved. We should lend to the ECB (Euro Central Bank), the money and let those who wittingly or unwittingly got themselves into this mess sort it out.

Adam sorry for this ramble, and that is what it is, but hell we (the majority) in the UK are totally sick to death of the corruptness and idiotic system that is the EU which in our minds is only exemplified by the shambolic example of the Euro.

That's enough politics, it distracts me from work, and I have to work to pay my taxes to help support the EU and unfortunately Greece (and Ireland, and Italy, and Portugal, and Spain).

Anyone want to buy a domain?

[elius]

national politicians love to blame Brussels for all their problems and now they reap what they've sown. The EU is bureaucratic because it's a bureaucracy but that's the essence of every government. It's not nearly as bureaucratic as any of its members national or local government. The real problem is the lack democracy in the EU and so many people have to have their say in the policy making process.

[ilovedomains]

What baffles me is if you go to zerohedge.com and read the posts their all saying the situation is hopeless and the world is about to crash, but the stock market is up every day. Why are stocks going up when theres so much doom and gloom about Europe?

[lordbyroniv]

What baffles me is if you go to zerohedge.com and read the posts their all saying the situation is hopeless and the world is about to crash, but the stock market is up every day. Why are stocks going up when theres so much doom and gloom about Europe?

The situation is hopeless because there is not enough money in the world to pay off the interest on the existing debt. This is not hyperbole. It is a mathematical fact once one learns about the exponential characteristics of compunding interest. The stock market is rallying because it is a rigged game; a hall of mirrors; high frequency robots and algo trading are smarter then you or me could ever hope to be. This recent rally is just another rally in a secular bear market.

---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:45 PM ----------

What are the consequences for the EU assuming Germany refuses to bail out Greece, Italy or the French banks? And how would this affect global markets? I'll appreciate any insight.

The consequences if Germany refuses to bail out the PIGS is likely that the the IMF, or the federal reserve will lend American money via swap lines, trading USD/EUR. This wont really work, but its more "can kicking" down the road. Eventually we all end up enslaved in a one world government by a new central bank with a new currency, probably partially backed by gold.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 PM ----------

Why does Greece need a bailout and why are countries thinking of setting a bad precedent by bailing them out?

Just curious.

Adam

French and German banks (but particularly french banks) don't want to take the 60% haircut from bad loans to the PIGS. The argument is - Why should they take a loss when the tax payers of the world can bail them out.... especially when the whole system is at stake. Yes... this is what "crony capitalism" looks like. They just like the profits. The losses are born by the tax-payer. That this is unsustainable is not lost on me. Gold, guns and domain names, thats whats its gonna come down to. Anybody catch the story last week how Bank of America dumped $1 TRILLION dollars worth of toxic derivatives on the FDIC last week. sick times we live in.

[Gerry]

Gold, guns and domain names, thats whats its gonna come down to.

Got em all. Although, I must confess I have more ammo than the other two.

[Raider]

Why does Greece need a bailout

One word; "Entitlements" and the USA is not too far behind.


3 Reasons Why Public Sector Employees Are Killing The Economy
March 31, 2010
ReasonTV

As unemployment stubbornly sticks near 10 percent and any sort of economic recovery seems a long way off, think about this: The one part of the economy that's going gangbusters is government work.

Indeed, since the Great Recession started in December 2007, over 8 million jobs have been lost in the private sector while the public sector has added at least 100,000 positions. It's time to recognize that public-sector employment is killing the economy for at least three reasons:

1. They cost too much. As USA Today recently noted, federal employees make on average almost $8,000 more than their private-sector counterparts. When you add in benefits, the gap spreads to about $30,000. State and local government workers make around the same as private-sector counterparts, but their health and retirement packages mean they make significantly more in the end.

2. We can't fire them. The private sector has shed positions in response to slackening demand and the economic downturn. That sort of adjustment is painful but necessary, as it allows the economy to adjust to changing circumstances and workers and employers to move into new activities. Because it is guaranteed certain amounts of tax revenue and has a non-market mind-set, the public sector is largely insulated from such forces and keeps or even adds workers despite changed conditions. The result? We keep paying for things that we don't use, need, or want.

3. They create a permanent lobby for expanded government and higher taxes. Look at California, where teacher unions have spent over $211 million dollars on elections in the past decade. One result is that 40 percent of California's budget must be spent on education, regardless of the number and needs of students. Over the last 10 years, taxpayer contributions to public-sector pension funds has increased by 2000 percent! Such sort of tax-based gladhanding is just getting started. For the first time in history, the number of public-sector union employees is greater than those in the private sector, so expect to see even more lobbying for the sorts of mandatory raises and permanent job security that most of us can only dream of.

Because the public sector gets its pay and benefits from tax dollars and public debt, every thing it gets means there's less for the rest of us to save, invest, or pay workers with. With the federal government and most states already neck-deep in red ink, it's time to cut public-sector pay and payrolls and return more money to the private sector. That will help spur the sort of investment and innovation that will get the economy moving and end the recession far faster than paying more and more money to government workers.

[Infoproliferati]

Thanks to you all for the responses. Bill, in depth and great post. How has the Euro currency fared in this climate? I remember reading articles on international confidence in the Euro markets in 2008 and parts of 2009 during the heat of the global financial crisis. China, if I recall, was one of the fervent advocates of investing in the Euro markets. Now it seems like it was some ploy to get foreign investors to buy into the Euro.

[Gerry]

China, if I recall, was one of the fervent advocates of investing in the Euro markets. Now it seems like it was some ploy to get foreign investors to buy into the Euro.

Investing Trillions in foreign currency can hardly be called a "ploy". China is the largest invested debt holder of US and fair to say many other countries. China is heavily invested in dollars, euros, and GBP because it can.

Look back over the past year or so at China "warning" the US to get its house in order and resolve the debt crisis and falling dollar.

Things that make one wonder what China is up to (other than just the outright flexing of its military might), China recently for the first time had ships of its Navy enter the Mediterranean Sea. To me, it is showing that it is not only a military giant but an economic giant willing to use its military might to protect its investments.

[Infoproliferati]

Actually you make a solid point there Doc. China has invested substantially in foreign currencies including the Euro. I think the Chinese were desperately trying to get investors to buy into the Euro during the crisis with the hope that more investment would boost the Euro economies, thereby securing China's investment in the region. Three years have passed and the Euro situation doesn't look any less grim, if anything worse off.

A world with China being #1...Now that terrifies even enemies of the West.

[Gerry]

The currencies and assets owned outside of China is enormous. China has put trillions into the coffers of many governments and does not like seeing its investment not making a return or going into negative territory.

China was highly pissed with the downgrading of the US

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...75718320110608
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/08/08/...-dollar-issues

Imagine having a superpower like China as you biggest creditor.

And China is hardly a fan of the EU
http://en.mercopress.com/2011/08/08/...-dollar-issues

The same goes for the monetary crisis currently facing the EU
http://business-standard.com/india/n...yuan/149746/on

Honestly, one of the most brilliant people to read and listen to is Fareed Zarkaria. His book, The Post-American World, described these very issues over three years ago. All is not lost. But I have a difficult time trying to understand why these people who have the foresight to see what will happen are not listened to. Worse, the resolution or the countermeasures recommended are never heeded or implemented.

That is the most difficult thing for many of us to face or accept - the US not being credible on many fronts and a world that goes on without the US influence of power once sought by others.

We are in the Post-American World.

I recently saw on Amazon that this book is being re-released as The Post-American World: Release 2.0

Book Description
"This is not a book about the decline of America, but rather about the rise of everyone else." So begins Fareed Zakaria's important new work on the era we are now entering. Following on the success of his best-selling The Future of Freedom, Zakaria describes with equal prescience a world in which the United States will no longer dominate the global economy, orchestrate geopolitics, or overwhelm cultures. He sees the "rise of the rest"—the growth of countries like China, India, Brazil, Russia, and many others—as the great story of our time, and one that will reshape the world. The tallest buildings, biggest dams, largest-selling movies, and most advanced cell phones are all being built outside the United States. This economic growth is producing political confidence, national pride, and potentially international problems. How should the United States understand and thrive in this rapidly changing international climate? What does it mean to live in a truly global era? Zakaria answers these questions with his customary lucidity, insight, and imagination.

I think I might have to read this but wonder how much is new or added over the first edition.

[Acro]

A rather superficial approach to a global problem but then again the British aren't quite keen on European matters. If they were, the pound would have been retired along with the other European currencies in 2001.

The so-called 'cooked books' approach was a political decision by Greek politicians of that era; in particular PM Simitis and his socialist government. What an irony that current PM George Papandreou, "heir" to the socialist throne and the son of Andreas and grandson of George - both prime ministers in their time - has to clean the Augean stables using force and measures that match if not exceed those of ancient Athenian Dracon.

The truth is, that both Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs helped Greece change the fate of the game, by investing in debt bonds as if they were in full support of the finances of the country. What was not disclosed, was that the game had just started on the back of a country that has a small gross domestic product compared to economic giants like Germany and France. In late 2009, the change in government in Greece from conservatives to socialists provided the signal to use Greece as the guinea pig for the experimental attack on the euro and the eurozone. The American banks removed their support and sold billions of dollars' worth of bonds with no real reasoning, thus sending the economy into a vertical tumble.

The Greeks are hard working people and stats issued by Germany itself show that they work longer than the so-called efficient and hard-working Germans. Greece is now being used as a scapegoat, after being used as the Trojan horse to invade the Eurozone economy by the American banks, the same banks that invented the derogatory term 'PIIGS' to justify their withdrawal from the financial game they started.

Greece's economy is service oriented; tourism generates the majority of revenue and industrial output is related. Meanwhile, the Greek merchant marine is the largest in the world!

So who is to blame for the current need for a bailout?

The banks. Their investment did not produce the results that were expected. In the US, the Government had to bail out the entire sector and did so by using money - dollars issued and printed without concern about the inflation, the loss of jobs and the lack of healthcare. The US Government swept clean the debt of the same banks that now are piling on interest on top of billions of dollars of 'owed' money for an investment that failed.

Who else is to blame?

The Greek politicians that are puppets of a game dictated upon by the banksters, the Eurozone leaders and the various political games that despite the unification exist to this date.

Who is not to blame?

The average Greek, who truly saw the past decade as a promising opportunity to grow and expand, all while unionists attached to the politicians used Eurozone provided funds to maintain an endless cycle of palm oiling with their Eurozone counterparts.

The average Greek makes less than euro 700 per month, all while living in one of the most expensive countries in the Eurozone and is now being told that he has to cut his own neck and repay astronomical amounts of money they never touched. The average Greek is being told that 'this is the right thing to do' and that 'we must pay back what we took'. The average Greek is at the mercy of corrupt politicians that one day will be taken to justice, much like Khadafi, Saddam and Mubarak.

So when you talk about 'bailouts' you need to look into what Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs and other 'merchants of Venice' did.

Adam, put simply, the Eurozone was (is) a political experiment in financial amalgamation between various members of the EU. To achieve as wide a support for political integration as possible the Europhiles within the EU (those who could best be described as 'Federalists') implemented a joint currency (1999) to replace individual national currencies. This was partially successful initially when the world was being funded by easy credit, after all the initial members all had relatively strong economies. Then subsequently other nations including Greece applied or were required to join the Eurozone. Greece joined in 2001.

The main problem with Greece is that they purposefully 'cooked the books' to make their economy seem stronger and therefore appeared to satisfy the national financial requirements to join. Of course some pointed out the Greek economy was not truly represented by the fiscal reports from Greece, but these people were either shouted down or just plain ignored by the europhiles who just wanted all european countries to be controlled within a federation. Then of course along comes 2008 and the credit crunch, suddenly the financial world had changed, and Greece and other eurozone nations that had the most unsustainable economies started suffering the most. For Greece who had used 'cooked books' the hit has been the hardest. Other nations in severe trouble are Italy, Spain, Portugal, and Ireland, and there is a possibility that France may well be sucked down as well.

With the above in mind now Greece does not have the fiscal resources to meet its current national debt repayments, this will mean that the Greek government will have to default on repaying loans and its state employees and social security benefits such as pensions. If (I personally think it is rather 'when') Greece does default then this will have a critical knock on effect on the other countries listed above, and this will undoubtedly result in European financial meltdown including such as Germany.

Now many world banks have loaned to the countries listed, this includes of course the US and China. Defaults will have major impacts on the balance sheets of these countries immediately as lending dries up but also on exports to these countries and others from around the world who will likewise be affected. Could you imagine the Chinese economy for instance receding 5-10% in a single year because of this and what possible impact that could have on the world (politically, financially, and possibly militarily)? It would be a catastrophic international knock on effect world-wide. Canada, the US, the UK, and others who did not bring this about are going to be hurt terribly unless a solution is found. Unfortunately at the moment it seems the only solution that will delay the tsunami is to bail out Greece, so we are all likely to suffer because of idiotic idealists and crooked politicians who dreamt up and forced the Euro in as a multi-national currency.

Should we as non-Eurozone countires bail out Greece (actually that is bail out the Eurozone countries as a whole)? No.

We should in my own personal opinion 'lend' to the Eurozone the money it needs and will be able to repay, but not to Greece, not to Italy, or to any other of the countries involved. We should lend to the ECB (Euro Central Bank), the money and let those who wittingly or unwittingly got themselves into this mess sort it out.

Adam sorry for this ramble, and that is what it is, but hell we (the majority) in the UK are totally sick to death of the corruptness and idiotic system that is the EU which in our minds is only exemplified by the shambolic example of the Euro.

That's enough politics, it distracts me from work, and I have to work to pay my taxes to help support the EU and unfortunately Greece (and Ireland, and Italy, and Portugal, and Spain).

Anyone want to buy a domain?

---------- Post added at 01:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 PM ----------

The age of retirement is incorrect; certain exceptions existed, such as mothers with children could retire at 57 but the average age of retirement is at 65 - still higher than that of France which stood at 60 until last year: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/16/wo.../16france.html

Part of the problem, listening to NPR, is a full 10% of Greece's population work for the state (country) and retirement age was something like age 50. So you have that many people retired at such a young age receiving a full pension over decades of government employment where over 40% of their entire national GDP goes just to pay for the government workers. This does not include the military. This is civilian government employees.

[Bill Roy]

A rather superficial approach to a global problem but then again the British aren't quite keen on European matters. If they were, the pound would have been retired along with the other European currencies in 2001.

Acro, it is only superficial in regards to the amount of evidence given, much of which can easily be found on the internet and elsewhere.

It is strange to me that when it was blatantly obvious to us in the UK that such a system as the Euro was flawed from the beginning that others did not see it, or perhaps that should be phrased as 'did not want to see it'. The Euro was introduced as a simple stepping stone towards a Federal Europe. Financially there was absolutely no reason for it to be introduced, unless you were one of the poorer member countries in which case there was a potential upside to it by taking from the richer and stronger economies of the Eurozone.

In essence an attempt was made to harmonize the different nations economies at the expense of the like of Germany, France, Netherlands, etc., when all other aspects of the economic and social structures were left untouched or at best tinkered with in all the varying countries. In the Eurozone you have different income taxation levels, different retirement ages, different social security benefits, different employment laws, different property tax laws, different educational systems, different health entitlement systems, indeed as has been pointed out different retirement ages. Whilst if all of these had been federalised at once, with perhaps small powers remaining with each individual nation (such as in the US where Federal and State governments would be an example) then perhaps, and only perhaps it 'might' of stood a chance of working. As it was it was blatantly clear to us that it could not work, instead of trying to smear us in the UK you might actually be better in saying something along the lines of 'The British got it right this time'.

Nowhere in my post, and I have re-read it to make sure, have I indicated that the 'normal' Greek is directly responsible for the nations problems (though by striking and acts of violence and murder those taking part are undoubtedly making the situation worse). Greece as a nation voted in the politicians and bureaucrats were employed by your government who instigated the take up of the Euro and borrowed money from the Banks, all with a promise to repay with interest. The politicians who were elected were elected by the people and acted on the peoples behalf, therefore, unfortunately it is the fault of the Greek people indirectly that your country is in such a mess. (Now if this had been during the Colonels regime this would not hold as the people did not elect them.)

It may be a nice and easy ploy to try and blame the banks, but no one was holding a gun to your Governments head when the money was borrowed. Now though you cannot and should not expect the Banks to take the 'blame', what the banks lose out on means that the pension funds and others that invested in those banks and lent Greece the money will lose out, and that means the workers whose pensions and savings are in those funds will lose out. So unless a compelling argument can be made as to why workers and pensioners from around the world should lose out I am at a loss to see why Greece should not have to pay.

One final point, here in the UK we know what it is like to elect lying politicians, Blair lied to Parliament and cost the lives of hundreds of our servicemen, Labour politicians as a whole lied to the country on the number of immigrants coming into the UK just so that they could try and get more Labour votes in the future. And dear old Mr. Brown the then Chancellor (Finance Minister) was urging us all to borrow money whilst himself not using a credit card and fiddling his expenses. Even today (literally today) it has come out that Mr. Cable (Business Secretary) failed to pay £25,000 tax that was due and was fined £500 for not paying it, this at the time he was decrying tax cheats! We feel for the Greeks, but it isn't others fault, this time not even the bankers!

[Acro]

I do not rely on the "Internet and elsewhere" to present my thesis; that's exactly the problem when making broad statements of the "blame Greece" kind.

The harmonization of the economies is based on the concept of free trade using a common currency.

The UK chose not to participate, for reasons that are clearly the choice of the old guard that still rules the Albion. But I hope you recall the anticipated shaking of the foundation, when Prince Charles and Camilla's car was violently attacked during the UK riots.

Of course, the Royal Wedding washed away all that thunder.

The lack of understanding is artificially inflated by those that behold power. It's not a secret that politicians are elected based on the commands engineered by an elite group that dictates what happens in the world, who lives and who dies. It's exactly the reason why countries with no direct affiliation to the West, such as Egypt and Libya witnessed a successful dethroning of their dictators.

In the West, the rulers and dictators aren't physical persons but financial entities. They are the banks.

Whether you like it or not, at this point, the salvaging of Greece by the joint forces of the Eurozone - including the UK - is mandatory. Simply because the Eurozone leaders will now have to ensure that the damage created by both the US banking system and the lack of a security mechanism in the Eurozone does not affect the European economy, the dream of a common marketplace.

And yet, the double games are being played on the backs of a nation that did nothing but act as a guinea pig.

In fact, the Greeks would be better off outside of the Eurozone altogether; having their own currency - call it, the new drachma - which could be devalued at command and issued at command of the nation's need. This way both goods and services would be cheaper and more competitive; instead of visiting dubious quality cheap-ass Turkey, you Brits would still be drinking ad nauseam at Corfu and Rhodes at 100 drachmas per ouzo shot.

The right to strike is not a Greek invention; in fact, American workers gained (and lost) that right first. Don't blame those that are suffering the most by the sword for exerting their last remaining right, to voice their need for survival; that goes well above their sense for a national pride.

Acro, it is only superficial in regards to the amount of evidence given, much of which can easily be found on the internet and elsewhere.

It is strange to me that when it was blatantly obvious to us in the UK that such a system as the Euro was flawed from the beginning that others did not see it, or perhaps that should be phrased as 'did not want to see it'. The Euro was introduced as a simple stepping stone towards a Federal Europe. Financially there was absolutely no reason for it to be introduced, unless you were one of the poorer member countries in which case there was a potential upside to it by taking from the richer and stronger economies of the Eurozone.

In essence an attempt was made to harmonize the different nations economies at the expense of the like of Germany, France, Netherlands, etc., when all other aspects of the economic and social structures were left untouched or at best tinkered with in all the varying countries. In the Eurozone you have different income taxation levels, different retirement ages, different social security benefits, different employment laws, different property tax laws, different educational systems, different health entitlement systems, indeed as has been pointed out different retirement ages. Whilst if all of these had been federalised at once, with perhaps small powers remaining with each individual nation (such as in the US where Federal and State governments would be an example) then perhaps, and only perhaps it 'might' of stood a chance of working. As it was it was blatantly clear to us that it could not work, instead of trying to smear us in the UK you might actually be better in saying something along the lines of 'The British got it right this time'.

Nowhere in my post, and I have re-read it to make sure, have I indicated that the 'normal' Greek is directly responsible for the nations problems (though by striking and acts of violence and murder those taking part are undoubtedly making the situation worse). Greece as a nation voted in the politicians and bureaucrats were employed by your government who instigated the take up of the Euro and borrowed money from the Banks, all with a promise to repay with interest. The politicians who were elected were elected by the people and acted on the peoples behalf, therefore, unfortunately it is the fault of the Greek people indirectly that your country is in such a mess. (Now if this had been during the Colonels regime this would not hold as the people did not elect them.)

It may be a nice and easy ploy to try and blame the banks, but no one was holding a gun to your Governments head when the money was borrowed. Now though you cannot and should not expect the Banks to take the 'blame', what the banks lose out on means that the pension funds and others that invested in those banks and lent Greece the money will lose out, and that means the workers whose pensions and savings are in those funds will lose out. So unless a compelling argument can be made as to why workers and pensioners from around the world should lose out I am at a loss to see why Greece should not have to pay.

One final point, here in the UK we know what it is like to elect lying politicians, Blair lied to Parliament and cost the lives of hundreds of our servicemen, Labour politicians as a whole lied to the country on the number of immigrants coming into the UK just so that they could try and get more Labour votes in the future. And dear old Mr. Brown the then Chancellor (Finance Minister) was urging us all to borrow money whilst himself not using a credit card and fiddling his expenses. Even today it has come out that Mr. Cable (Business Secretary) failed to pay £25,000 tax that was due and was fined £500 for not paying it, this at the time he was decrying tax cheats! We feel for the Greeks, but it isn't others fault, this time not even the bankers!