Is global warming real or a hoax?

[touchring]

Originally Posted by theinvestor

BTW, Ethanol as an alternative fuel source is in fact causing more pollution. Do some research, it may be cheaper as crude oil prices increase.

Don't be fooled by thinking it's environmentally the best choice though.

Wait till you see how they grow palm oil biofuel.

First, they burn the jungles -
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIM...26/forest9.jpg

Then the forest becomes like this - http://www.greenpeace.org/raw/image_...estruction.jpg

Then, they grow rows and rows of oil palm -
http://www.crisp.nus.edu.sg/~researc...l/texture1.gif

[HarveyJ]

GoPC: Whilst I don't agree with your rationale, at least it's rational, and the conclusion behind it is similar to some that I have reached...

So let's move beyond Natural V Man-made...

The new question becomes: What can we NOW do to prevent the temperature extremes that will cause major problems? What further can we do to lower our emissions, because even if they're not behind global warming, they ARE behind other issues that are just as important, such as oceanic toxification and noticeably increased cancer rates in urban centers.

[GoPC]

Absolutely. This is a great concern and problem to be addressed. It goes far beyond just pollution, emissions and oil. It's about a foundational, wasteful attitude across the boards.

I think it really boils down to personal responsibility (like so many things it seems). Each and every person needs to make an effort to consume less, consume smarter and take the time to consider the waste we leave behind. From eating to much and the food we leave on our plates to driving to much because we hate to walk to walking past that plastic wrapper because we weren't the one that dropped it to suing someone for something you should have known better in the first place.

It's about looking outward rather than looking inward. It's about giving, rather than taking. It's about shaking loose the entitlement mentality and no longer putting rights before responsibility.

In fact, this one simple shift could not only affect waste, emissions and pollution.... it could affect hunger, violence, taxes, insurance, the cost of fuel an even (gulp) race/creed/religion.

It's a noble goal to be sure and I don't think taxes, punishment and death will ever lead people to that goal.

I choose to hope and work for the best.

GoPC

[tas38]

( This is a great concern and problem to be addressed. It goes far beyond just pollution, emissions and oil. It's about a foundational, wasteful attitude across the boards. )

Well I could not have said it better GOPC, although I sure most GW is man made I can live with anyone that don't buy into it. As long as they see the bigger truth as you just posted above, this is indeed about the way people think and live. And not just about oil but everything, that is lets make money or lets do what we want at all cost thinking.

I'm not sure it's not to late already, with in the next 100 years things will change on a scale like we never seen. Pressure will mount to go to other planets for the resources I'm sure, it seems no one takes what we are doing as wrong at all. Even them that want to fight it, seem to put big limits on how it will be limited like with these so called state carbon taxes. That more about taxing the people then cutting CO2 levels, a world carbon taxes would work fine though.

But that only because we can't put laws on other country's, and we can indeed make laws for the USA. And fine places that don't go by them, and it would be very hard for any biz to pass fines onto the people. Just like the big taxes on smokes, here in PA it's like $10 on a cartoon. That money just got sucked up into the black whole state fund, the same with the billions from cigg makers where did all that money go ???

That even made it to where people that are suffering from smoking, could not sue makers as it was part of the gov't settlements with makers. And the states knew how bad it was for people, and help the makers cover it up to collect their tax on every pack sold. They are just as much to blame as the makers, this carbon tax will be just another way to tax us I'm sure.

Like they said some city's got so much smog, that it's like people there was smoking 2 packs of ciggs per day. They also pass laws they must lower the smog levels, but then give them all kinds of loop holes to put it off for many years. Now how do people fight that kind of gov't thinking, and no one in their right mind would let them put a carbon tax on energy. We will just give them a general fund to take money from, some of that money may well be giving to big oil even.

Like they already give big oil billions in taxes breaks, some one pointed out the gov't controls all oil land leases. That xmoblie made 40 billion last year, but the gov't made 70 billion off of them. So our own gov't is giving us the shaft along with big oil, obama wants to tax big oils profits that amounts to the gov't taxing us even more. What ever happen to passing laws and then inforceing them, they let big biz dump chems and only give them small fines.

In many cases the gov't even clean the chems up they dump, because the biz can file BK then the gov't clean it up. Meaning the tax payers boot the bill for cleaning it up, and many times it never gets cleaned up at all. All this has to change in order to start fixing this massive problem. And speaking about the gov't they need to clean up their acts, they put out massive amounts of CO2 and other stuff. It's not just big biz doing it so bad, the gov't puts out more then their share of it.

So it will take major changes of thinking, across the board even our own gov't as well. I'm sure this is one reason, they have not even try to stop the problem or try to limited the problem. It's because they are a big part of the problem, and this carbon tax is nothing more then putting a new tax on everyone. Having auctions to sell them to the highest bidder proves it, big biz will be the only ones able to buy them. That leaves small biz out in the cold, and gives the gov't a new tax machine to tax us with.

[H2FC]

Nobody wants more taxes but I believe the new 'carbon tax and trade auction system' being proposed in congress right now will become law and here's why.

The true cost of burning fossil fuels for energy must be recognized and it must include the cost of the capture and disposable of co2 and other GH gases. The old days of allowing companies and governments to conveniently dump excessive tonnage of their waste product into the atmosphere will soon be over. This cannot continue and when the true cost of disposing of this dirty by-product fossil fuel waste is taken into account the cost of the new clean alternative fuels will be a bargain.

There is no way the oil burning companies producing the excessive Co2 waste will ever police themselves for the safety of our health and planet. To believe they will as our president has proposed is just insane in my opinion.

I don't like new taxes any more than anyone else but I believe its the only way to really demonstrate the true cost of burning fossil fuels for energy. When that true cost includes safely disposing of the killer gases is taken into account companies will turn to new alternative energies as they are being developed and implimented because they will be cost comparable.

The good news is that as more alternative fuels such as the sun, wind, and hydrogen are used they will become much cheaper. We will all benefit from them more than we can possibly imagine. This is not a 'pie-in-the-sky' dream....its been proved to be possible and feasible...it already begun to happen....it will become reality sooner than what many think.

[GoPC]

But we need to consider the impact of these "cheaper" power sources as well...

E85 for instance is ONLY cheaper because of the massive government subsidizing and the shovel fulls of cash that the growers are getting right now. The side effect is a global draw on these grains that are wrecking havoc across multiple countries. The drought in Australia isn't helping matters either.

But the fact remains, Alternatives aren't always cheaper and the reality is that in order for these alternatives to work, they must be cost effective as well as efficient. So many, unfortunately, are not.

Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of E85. Despite the fact that it provides roughly 30% LESS fuel ecconomy (so I have to burn MORE) and the fact that every full tank is burning up food that would have been going to needy countries (that can't afford to pay what the government/refinery is willing to pay)... E85 has the equivelent of 115 octane and my race car goes REALLY well on the stuff. I gained an extra 150 HP alone off of tuning to E85!!! Sweet...

So yeah, I'm a Green Racer.

GoPC

[Raider]

The average temperature on Mars has risen 0.6 °C since the 1970's, just as earth's
temperature has risen, Are the Martians more industrialized than we are?, Maybe we should get Al Gore a internet connection on Mars so he spread the word about Global warming there too.

Seriously, Man made Global warming is a HOAX.

With 82% of US climate scientists refusing to support the global warming theory, I don't buy into the Liberal theory that it does. A theory based on inaccurate information.

[rockey]

Originally Posted by Raider

The average temperature on Mars has risen 0.6 °C since the 1970's, just as earth's
temperature has risen, Are the Martians more industrialized than we are?, Maybe we should get Al Gore a internet connection on Mars so he spread the word about Global warming there too.

Seriously, Man made Global warming is a HOAX.

With 82% of US climate scientists refusing to support the global warming theory, I don't buy into the Liberal theory that it does. A theory based on inaccurate information.

I agree with Raider girl on one aspect : Mars is also getting warmer. In fact, the whole solar system is undergoing climate change, not just earth or mars. Anthropogenic influences (Co2, CFC, SO2, and so forth) are certainly heating up the earth. What NASA climatologists, Al Gore and Bush administration are unaware of or might be "acting" as if they don't know and propagating disinformation to the public domain, richard hoagland and david wilcock reveal the truth in a paper written about interplanetary climate change.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/_ar...lanetary_1.htm

[H2FC]

I don't think E85 is a good feasible alternative for fossil fuels.....at least not the way its being produced now in the US. I agree with GoPC saying its "ONLY cheaper because of the massive government subsidizing and the shovel fulls of cash that the growers are getting right now". I suspect that will change when the Al Gore supporters take control of the White House in January....hehe. Thats when we will start seeing some real alternative energy programs begin to crop up.

Originally Posted by Raider

The average temperature on Mars has risen 0.6 °C since the 1970's, just as earth's
temperature has risen, Are the Martians more industrialized than we are?, Maybe we should get Al Gore a internet connection on Mars so he spread the word about Global warming there too.

Seriously, Man made Global warming is a HOAX.

With 82% of US climate scientists refusing to support the global warming theory, I don't buy into the Liberal theory that it does. A theory based on inaccurate information.

When did you get back from Mars? Is that where you went while you were away from here a while back? Thanks for the update and the Al Gore suggestion but I suspect he's much too busy here on Earth to go there right now.

Your claim that 82% of US climate scientists are GW skeptics is TOTALLY WRONG....you obviously live in a LaLa Land unaware of what the real world knows. Sound like you need to quit listening to Rush L. and watching that other Idiot on TV, Glenn Beck.

[HarveyJ]

Raider: In case you missed it, we moved the conversation beyond whether it's man made or natural, because [i]it's a goddamn red herring designed to stop you from thinking[i/] about the fact that man made or not, we're still undergoing climate change, it's going to be catastrophic, and we damn well need to do something about it.

So instead of *****ing about people that vote Democrat, what are you suggestions for ways we can reduce pollution so we're not all choking on car exhaust, eating fish filled with mercury because the land is too salty to farm on, and we're being eaten alive by mosquitoes with malaria as the global humidity has risen with the melting of the polar icecaps?

[bd77]

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

Raider: In case you missed it, we moved the conversation beyond whether it's man made or natural, because [i]it's a goddamn red herring designed to stop you from thinking[i/] about the fact that man made or not, we're still undergoing climate change, it's going to be catastrophic, and we damn well need to do something about it.

So instead of *****ing about people that vote Democrat, what are you suggestions for ways we can reduce pollution so we're not all choking on car exhaust, eating fish filled with mercury because the land is too salty to farm on, and we're being eaten alive by mosquitoes with malaria as the global humidity has risen with the melting of the polar icecaps?

Even if and thats a big if so called Global Warming is going to have the effect that you and some others on this forum think their is nothing you can do about it. How hot or cold the planet gets is in mother nature's hands. Its arrogant and elitist to believe we as humans can change and/or control the earths climate.

[sdsinc]

Originally Posted by bd77

Even if and thats a big if so called Global Warming is going to have the effect that you and some others on this forum think their is nothing you can do about it. How hot or cold the planet gets is in mother nature's hands. Its arrogant and elitist to believe we as humans can change and/or control the earths climate.

ROFLMAO

[Raider]

Originally Posted by H2FC

When did you get back from Mars? Is that where you went while you were away from here a while back?

What's the matter H2FC? you don't have an answer for the increase in temp on Mars?. You have an answer for everything, Why not do what Al Gore does?, Be Creative, invent something that only the guilable will believe, it works for him.

Actually I've been busy choosing things for a new home were having built, which reminds me, Their was this heating and cooling guy that came to our home for a estimate, he reminded a lot like you, the type that doesn't know when to shutup.... My husband was going to give him a deposit for 11K until he started yapping about Global warming and how man is to blame, To make a long story short, he never got the check, all he got was the front door

Originally Posted by H2FC

Thanks for the update and the Al Gore suggestion but I suspect he's much too busy here on Earth to go there right now.

The only thing Al Gore is busy with is keeping his HOAX alive.

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

Raider: In case you missed it, we moved the conversation beyond whether it's man made or natural, because [i]it's a goddamn red herring designed to stop you from thinking[i/] about the fact that man made or not, we're still undergoing climate change, it's going to be catastrophic, and we damn well need to do something about it.

Your actually buying into that doom and gloom stuff?, Is Global temperature climbing? Last I checked, Global Temp has been STABLE since 1998, meaning it's NOT getting hotter.... The whole theory behind Global Warming is that man made CO2 emissions is to blame, so while C02 emissions are on the increase, Global temperature remains stable, why? What don't the facts fit the theory?.

Oh yeah, those catastrophic events?, Florida's going to be under 2 feet of water by next year, that's what Al Gore said 9 years ago.. Polar Bears will be extinct, even though they survived the Medieval warm period, meaning they should of been extinct a long time ago.

[GoPC]

Originally Posted by Raider

What's the matter H2FC? you don't have an answer for the increase in temp on Mars?.

Haven't you heard? The Debate on the Global Warming of Mars if OVER.



GoPC

[accent]

Originally Posted by GoPC

It's about a foundational, wasteful attitude across the boards.

And WAY too many people on planet Earth doing the wasting, more everyday as the rest of the world tries to catch up to the American/European/etc "standard" of living.

I agree with Al Gore on a whole lot of things, voted for him and all, but I think he has made a major blunder with the global warming promotion. There are signs of it's success - certainly has caused more discussion of human impact - but it is a dumbing down of much deeper issues. We are part of the earth, totally dependant on it, and behaving as if our short term personal benefit is the only reality.

By setting the focus on Global Warming, Gore and friends allow the hope that a simplistic solution can "fix the problem". This reduction allows the Mars arguement (valid, I believe), and others specific to warming ("worst winter in 40 years") to gain traction, obscuring the greater problems caused by human unconsiousness.

I haven't read this whole thread, do not know if my favorite simplistic solution has yet been mentioned:
Hemp produces several times the oil per acre and does not deplete the soil (corn is awful about that).
Hemp can be grown on marginal land unsuitable for other crops (although I suggest we should be aware of whatever is growing there now), so we would not be putting our food in the gas tank.
And hemp does not require pesticides and large amounts of energy-consuming fertilizer.

But hemp alone cannot solve the Earth's problems - people have to do that.

[bd77]

Originally Posted by sdsinc

ROFLMAO

What's so funny? Let me guess your a firm believer in the religion known as Global Warming. Now thats funny.