Health Care Bill Passes

[Raider]

Yes, With all the Bribing, Trickery and Backroom Deals, Health care has finally passed and the Democrats OWN it.

Now would anyone care to guess what's coming next?

Public backlash is almost sure to happen, not to mention the Constitutionality of forcing Americans to buy something they don't want.

Many see this going to the US Supreme Court and being overturned, I happen to agree.

[Seraphim]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Obama that kept chastising Hillary Clinton for wanting to "mandate" health care, while imposing fines and or imprisonment on to people who don't have it? Now he's doing the exact same thing, yet I don't hear one word about this giant contradiction anywhere.

9/11... Occupation of Afghanistan... Occupation of Iraq... Wall Street Induced Recession... Wall Street Bailouts... Possible War With Iran Hanging In The Balance... and now a Government Mandate to Purchase Health Insurance From Private Companies...

Wow... I am fully ready for state secession. I no longer want anything to do with the US Federal Government. I'm hoping this will be one of the last straws...

Only in the United States of America, does the government give you health care by forcing you to buy it from a private company, or face fines and or imprisonment.

A message from campaign Obama:

[ilovedomains]

Let me guess...

1. Elizabeth J. Fowler, the former VP of Wellpoint who wrote the bill gets richly rewarded by the health care industry and lives happily ever after. (if you open the bill and look under document properties, it lists her as author).

2. Americans find out the hard way what happens when foxes write legislation for chickens.

[Bill Roy]

Some Americans it would seem are willing to spend billions of dollars sending American troops to die in foreign countries to 'help' the people of that country and yet protest vehmently that 'freedom' is being expunged because better health care through insurance companies being forced not to deny Americans the right to insure themselves at reasonable rates!

Well done Obama, in the General Election you ran with this as your flagship domestic policy and you won a majority of the votes of the American people - and you have kept your word.

It seems that 'democracy' to some Americans is only a convenient tag to wave when it suits/matches their own personal views, thankfully America and the world are better of now that the party who encompass most of those of this view is no longer in power.

[Seraphim]

It seems that 'democracy' to some Americans is only a convenient tag to wave when it suits/matches their own personal views, thankfully America and the world are better of now that the party who encompass most of those of this view is no longer in power.

If I'm not mistaken, 54% of Americans oppose the bill, while 41% support it. Sounds a lot like European Union "democracy" doesn't it, where no means yes.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform

[draggar]

How many doctors were able to give some input and NOT be ignored?

[Seraphim]

How many doctors were able to give some input and NOT be ignored?

Who needs a doctor's input, when you have the leak proof judgment and intellect of a radical Euro-style left wing bureaucrat?

Anyone know when the 16,000 new IRS agents will be marching through Red Square, that's a parade I don't want to miss. How about that for some Bolshevik inspired job creation?

At a time when the US Federal government has fuc-ked up just about everything, we are now told by Obama that it will take even more government to fix the problem. Crazy days...

Now all we need is a war with Iran, and amnesty for 40 million illegal immigrants. That should seal the deal for the ushering in of some real change.

Reminds me of how Nicholas II killed 3,300 opponents of the state, while the great Red Bolshevik "cure" hit the 1,900,000 marker.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis

Lewis is an absolute bad ass. Think Bush vs. Obama in the quote above, or Republican vs Democrat ideology.

[Bill Roy]

So 54% of Americans oppose the Bill? Forgive me but when was this question put to the American public? The last I remember when the American people had a chance to vote on it as part of an election was at the General Election! Or have the Repugs been holding secret ballots?

Or do you just mean that opinion polls show 54% against the Bill, which if you do does not mean that 54% of Americans are against it but just that a poll shows this. If polling is to be classed as democracy then let us go all the way, let us start with whether President Bush (jnr) should be tried for his crimes? Now that would be interesting indeed. I actually class 'poll policying' (reacting to polls and supporting policy based on the polls) as nothing better than mob raising, but then again I can well see that some people would approve of that, of course only if it supported their views though.

President Obama you have kept your word, well done.

Now democracy has been inacted under the American Constitution and some Republicans would rather tear up the Constitution than support it, a great show for how much 'they' support democracy and the Constitution.

[DomainsInc]

If I'm not mistaken, 54% of Americans oppose the bill, while 41% support it. Sounds a lot like European Union "democracy" doesn't it, where no means yes.

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...th_care_reform

What percentage even understand what the bill really says?

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Who needs a doctor's input, when you have the leak proof judgment and intellect of a radical Euro-style left wing bureaucrat?

Anyone know when the 16,000 new IRS agents will be marching through Red Square, that's a parade I don't want to miss. How about that for some Bolshevik inspired job creation?

At a time when the US Federal government has fuc-ked up just about everything, we are now told by Obama that it will take even more government to fix the problem. Crazy days...

Now all we need is a war with Iran, and amnesty for 40 million illegal immigrants. That should seal the deal for the ushering in of some real change.

Reminds me of how Nicholas II killed 3,300 opponents of the state, while the great Red Bolshevik "cure" hit the 1,900,000 marker.

"Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." C.S. Lewis

Lewis is an absolute bad ass. Think Bush vs. Obama in the quote above, or Republican vs Democrat ideology.

This is pretty funny coming from you, someone who left the States to live in Europe...Oh and by the way, the 16000 IRS agents is BS, look it up. Its just propaganda.

[Seraphim]

What percentage even understand what the bill really says?

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

This is pretty funny coming from you, someone who left the States to live in Europe...Oh and by the way, the 16000 IRS agents is BS, look it up. Its just propaganda.

Probably 0%, considering Obama lied about it being an open and transparent process. I guess what he meant, is that we could all learn about it in practice, four years down the road, with IRS agents banging on our doors...

---------- Post added at 04:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------

What percentage even understand what the bill really says?

---------- Post added at 08:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

This is pretty funny coming from you, someone who left the States to live in Europe...Oh and by the way, the 16000 IRS agents is BS, look it up. Its just propaganda.

I think we've gone rounds on this before. I am a born and raised American citizen, with a residence in the United States. I pay taxes, and am subject to all US laws. Does owning a second home in Europe, mean I don't get an opinion regarding the matters of my own country? I will be paying for this HealthCare bill, can you say the same Mr. Canadian? I could care less about Canadian Health Care, since I don't live there.

With regard to the 16K new IRS agents, I am reading sources on both sides confirming this. Do you have a Canadian source disapproving it. Please post a link.

[DomainsInc]

Probably 0%, considering Obama lied about it being an open and transparent process. I guess what he meant, is that we could all learn about it in practice, four years down the road, with IRS agents banging on our doors...

---------- Post added at 04:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:31 AM ----------

The bill seem to be far from what it should be, it is in no way 'socialized' health care. I don't like the idea of 'forcing' people to have health insurance. I am not sure how this is possible, if someone can't afford it, then what are they supposed to do? However, something needed to be done about insurance companies dropping people suddenly, leaving those with health problems in the cold because they are not profitable to insure, etc.

I think we've gone rounds on this before. I am a born and raised American citizen, with a residence in the United States. I pay taxes, and am subject to all US laws. Does owning a second home in Europe, mean I don't get an opinion regarding the matters of my own country?

A false and libelous comment about Seraphim goes here...

[Seraphim]

...

I've never once mentioned my age in this forum. And you just crossed into making a false and libelous statement about me. Please remove the comment, and let's stick to the Health Care topic. I don't understand why you're making this a personal matter about me.

[Anthony Ng]

For those who are not aware of it, this will be HISTORY. Look back in time, many will have a hard time explaining to their grandchildren, very much like those who waved their fists angrily at the black kids who just wanted to go to school.

Kid: Why would you oppose to universal health care back then, Grandpa? You are such a nice person.
Grandpa: ... (speechless)

See you all in 30 years. LOL!

[Nexus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it Obama that kept chastising Hillary Clinton for wanting to "mandate" health care, while imposing fines and or imprisonment on to people who don't have it? Now he's doing the exact same thing, yet I don't hear one word about this giant contradiction anywhere.

This is completely true. If we were in a monarchy, I have no doubt Obama's plan would not have included mandated care. He chose to allow the congress to draft a bill, and only stepped in later in the process to find common ground and boost the tone of the debate. Bills like these are interconnected meshes of legislation and agreements.

You saw how many times the "public option" entered and got toss out on its ear. It's clear Obama could have chosen to threaten veto unless mandated care was tossed out... but Obama's original plan did allow a mandate for children, in an effort to increase that pool of coverage (one of our most serious challenges as a country is the health of our children, it directly leads to our ability to be competitive). He admitted on a number of occassions that he was open to a mandate but that he wasn't confident it could gain passage. As time progressed, it seemed clear that a mandate was the ONLY way to properly have the system work and lower cost while increasing coverage.

But, this is all hypothetical. As Tim Cahill pointed out just last week, as Democratic treasurer of Massachusetts, a state with mandatory healthcare, this type of legislation has done NOTHING to help lower costs in Massachusetts... and in fact costs have increased. Moreover, healthcare in running a deficit. In his words, this bill would bankrupt the country.

True? Lots to disagree with. We'll clearly be having this fearful discussion in the coming months.

Now democracy has been inacted under the American Constitution and some Republicans would rather tear up the Constitution than support it, a great show for how much 'they' support democracy and the Constitution.

It's appalling how little people care about the constitution when their own concerns are put at risk. Often times, arguments are about ideology and fear... and not the sanctity of our founding documents. I think the "Abortion" and "Death Panel" arguments have been some of the worst fake-arguments during this whole extended debate.

The "abortion" argument says that unless you explicitly prohibit it, abortion is allowed to receive funding even in the absence of provisions, given a series of far-reaching hypothetical situations.

The "death panel" arguments say that simply alloting for end-of-life counseling means that the government is trying to kill people off, instead of what it actually refers to, which is providing funds for your doctor to arrange counselling so that all of your property doesn't fall into probate after you die because everyone only wanted to believe in rainbows and miracles... or you die absolutely stricken with grief and worry because no one gave you anything else to consider.

The most salient issues have to due with financing, identifying abuse, and the constitutionality of mandated care. As an instructor in constitutional law, I'm sure Pres. Obama is no stranger to this last topic, but its a significant one. At the end of the day, I believe our constitution promises us life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. LIFE is the first, LIBERTY is the second, and HAPPINESS is the third. Dying simply because of the realities that an unregulated insurance industry, in that they can choose to cut you off when you get sick and can't even provide portability between jobs... is not only terrible, but it needed to be corrected.

The pool needs to be larger. We can do better even without going to universal healthcare.

If I'm not mistaken, 54% of Americans oppose the bill, while 41% support it. Sounds a lot like European Union "democracy" doesn't it, where no means yes.

Democracy is not a poll. It's about going to the ballot box. Anyone who has an appreciation to acknowledge that the polls are an approximation of the general mood or opinions held by sections of the population. It is a generally held principle that you cannot lead a Democracy by simply taking a series of polls and changing your trajectory with its ebbs and flows. This is not leadership. The polls also show that Americans overwhelmingly support the various PARTS of the bill... which is a huge point, particularly given that Americans by-and-large do not enjoy watching the process of drafting, discussing, and voting on legislation. You combine those two facts, add lots of vociferous misinformation on both sides, and you have Democracy in action.

Public backlash is almost sure to happen, not to mention the Constitutionality of forcing Americans to buy something they don't want. Many see this going to the US Supreme Court and being overturned, I happen to agree.

We'll have to see how this turns out. There are a number of exclusions to the requirement. Some people question the constitutionality of taxes in general. How can the government take your money simply because you earned it? At the end of the day, welcome to civilization. Our representative government voted this law into being.

~ Nexus

[Seraphim]

For those who are not aware of it, this will be HISTORY. Look back in time, many will have a hard time explaining to their grandchildren, very much like those who waved their fists angrily at the black kids who just wanted to go to school.!

What does this have to do with race? WOW! You really can't let go of that angle, can you?

[Donald Aquilano]

Slowly but surely my rights as a US citizen are taken away. Now they mandate that I have health insurance? Give me a ****ing break its not the job of the federal government to force me to have health insurance. The politicians who voted for this will pay dearly come November you can bet on that.

Medicare, Medicare, Social Security and now this monstrosity.....how the hell can this country financially afford it? What will they do next tax are wages 80, 90, 100% to pay for it? That's where were headed next.

[DomainsInc]

I've never once mentioned my age in this forum. And you just crossed into making a false and libelous statement about me. Please remove the comment, and let's stick to the Health Care topic. I don't understand why you're making this a personal matter about me.

Wha? I'll remove if it you really want to..you have something to hide or what? I tried searching for articles about the hiring of the IRS agents, I can find many articles, all of which said 'republican congressman says...', 'gop says...', republicans say..., Bachmann says... nothing concrete. Although it wouldn't surprise me that this bill will be nothing more than a clusterf*ck causing more problems there is a lot of false and unverified information out there regarding it as well.

As for my Mr. Canadian input, which is apparently unwanted and unwarranted by yourself and possibly others I used to want to move to the States and become an American citizen. No so much these days. I also grew up 15 minutes from the US/Canadian border. Have many US friends and consider US/Canada friends who can both learn things from each other. Apparently you don't.

[Seraphim]

...

Please remove the comment... This discussion isn't about me, it's about the Health Care bill.

[Donald Aquilano]

Now democracy has been inacted under the American Constitution and some Republicans would rather tear up the Constitution than support it, a great show for how much 'they' support democracy and the Constitution.

BILLBO, I like you but you need to read up on history. The United States was set up as a Republic not a democracy.

[biggedon]

For those who are not aware of it, this will be HISTORY. Look back in time, many will have a hard time explaining to their grandchildren, very much like those who waved their fists angrily at the black kids who just wanted to go to school.

Kid: Why would you oppose to universal health care back then, Grandpa? You are such a nice person.
Grandpa: ... (speechless)

See you all in 30 years. LOL!

appropriate comment

but we don't have to wait 30 years

as many have went back in time, like the "T party"

their behaivor is more like those granpa' and grandma's of the 50's who didn't want black children to go to school, now in 2010 they're the same kind that spit on people, hand nooses, use racial slurs, etc.

they stir the "rhetoric pot of hate and fear" then serve it up to the people thru the media

this summer is going to be hot!!!

a big "push back" is a coming