I'll show you Obama's Birth Certificate when...

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

The birther argument based on de Vattel is utterly bankrupt, as are many of your peculiar legal theories in another thread.

Under the 14th Amendment, there are two ways to be a US Citizen. One is to be born here, and not be born to diplomats. The second is to be naturalized by immigration. That's it. Being born in the US makes one a natural born citizen.

de Vattel was a Swiss political philospher who wrote the book you reference in French. Its first English translation did not even include the phrase "natural born citizen", but does note that under English law, being born in England was a sufficient condition to be an English subject, which is most germane in understanding the founder's intent because "natural born subject" is the term at English common law (on which US law is based) to refer to a person born in England.

As noted by Madison, one of the principle architects of the Constitution, in a speech before the House of Representatives in May of 1789, James Madison said:

It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.


( Abridgment of the Debates of Congress, from 1789 to 1856 From Gales and Seatons’ Annals of Congress; from Their Register of Debates; and from the Official Reported Debates, by John C. Rives By United States. Congress, Thomas Hart Benton)

Here is, specifically, where you have been lied to about Vattel.

You've seen this quote:


Those words, however, are quoted from a translation of de Vattel that first appeared in 1797, 10 years after the Constitution’s ratification. Did the framers know Vattel’s work in the French? If so, there is a problem because the literal phrase “natural-born citizen” is not present in the original French which says:



For those who don’t speak French, the word “citizen” (Citoyen) appears only ONCE in the sentence.

Given that the phrase “natural born citizen” was not in the French, was it in the English translations available to the framers of the US Constitution? The answer is, “no”.

...and if you want to see those translations, they are more extensively treated here:

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/...ted/#more-3446

This notion of "natural born citizen" as some third category of citizenship has been developed whole cloth by birthers using legal theories which are not only wrong, but dishonest.

Which legal theory are you referring to? The Federal Reserve Act? The Sheppard-Towner Act? The War Powers Act? The Federal Register Act? The Social Security Act? etc, the whole shebang?..

Why don't you give me your "theory."

As far as what you posted. I'll have a look tomorrow. I'm not afraid of new information.

EDIT: Your little reference from a fresh look and only having to read a few paragraphs into it has pages of words cut off. So far dismiss denied.

This story is getting pretty thick John. It appears that the true story is coming out. That being that Obama's entire life is based on lies. His book is being turned into a big fabrication. His father went by the name of "'Bear-ick — with the accent on the first syllable. That is how he referred to himself, they said. In Hawai'i at least, they never heard him call himself "Buh-rock," with the accent on the second syllable, the pronunciation his son would adopt in his adult life."

His mom was sitting in class 1000's of miles away from Hawaii 15 days after he was born while his dad was apparently still in Hawaii. Expelling Obama's claims that they stayed together as a happy family for several years. In fact as it turns out there's no record of them ever living together.

Obama's is a big fraud and the way it's looking his entire family was a fraud. His dad was married when he knocked up his mom. His Grandmother believed Sr's family were Kenyan witchdoctors. You can only imagine the damage control she was trying to do with her young daughter getting knocked up by a married black man nearly 50 years ago.

Obama's got something to hide and it will come out. Obviously from his own writings and the facts coming out he doesn't even know his real history. This guy sure seems to have a good scenario going

http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2009/...a-reveals.html

[jberryhill]

Expelling Obama's claims that they stayed together as a happy family for several years. In fact as it turns out there's no record of them ever living together.

Ummm... I have no idea where you've gotten the impression that his mother, father, and he "stayed together as a happy family for several years". Barack Obama Sr. left Hawaii for Massachusetts not long after President Obama was born, and they were divorced in 1964 when he was two years old. He met his father again when he was something like nine.

Why you believe there is something suspicious about having a baby and then showing up at a college in which one enrolled, or how anyone may or may not have pronounced their name is anyone's guess.

As to your other legal theories, and I have limited time to chase down each bizarre thing you throw out, you will find a compendium of many of them discussed here:

Idiot Legal Arguments: A Casebook for Dealing with Extremist Legal Arguments

By Bernard J. Sussman, JD, MLS, CP

http://www.adl.org/mwd/suss1.asp

If you actually care about the law of US citizenship as it applies to persons born in the United States, then you should probably review In re Look Tin Sing, 21 F. 905, 910 (C.C.D. Cal. 1884), which relied on Lynch v. Clarke (N.Y. 1844) ("[The only standard which then existed, of a natural born citizen, was the rule of the common law, and no different standard has been adopted since. Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born, but of alien parents, could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution? I think not. The position would be decisive in his favor that by the rule of the common law, in force when the constitution was adopted, he is a citizen.") These rulings were foundational for the US Supreme Court holding in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) for which you can even read the Wikipedia summary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...._Wong_Kim_Ark

A lot of these cases arose from "Chinese Exclusion Laws" which were drafted to prevent Chinese railroad workers or their children from obtaining US citizenship in the 1800's.

Again, de Vattel is not a source of US common law, adopted wholesale from English common law, and under which a "natural born subject" was always considered one having been born in the physical dominion of England.

[Seraphim]

We all know Frank Marshall Davis is Obama's real father. Stanley Dunham really dropped the ball.

[jberryhill]

We all know Frank Marshall Davis is Obama's real father. Stanley Dunham really dropped the ball.

Riiii...iiight. You birthers are closing in on the kill any day now...

[fab]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

We all know Frank Marshall Davis is Obama's real father. Stanley Dunham really dropped the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHfpSuCWsuQ

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Riiii...iiight. You birthers are closing in on the kill any day now...

It was a joke John... While I firmly believe Barack Obama is the Trevi Fountain of douche bags, I would never seriously question the paternal bond between him and the now infamous Barack "I'd rather chuck spears in Kenya than raise my own child" Obama, Sr.

[jberryhill]

It was a joke John..

...as was my response. The fact is, as demonstrated in this thread, there are people who are quite serious about the birther stuff, and they are going to be chasing their tails for the foreseeable future.

However, it is not unusual for presidents to have family histories which contributed to their own sense of self-confidence and independence.

Take President Leslie Lynch King, for example...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Ford

Gerald Ford later said his biological father had a history of hitting his mother. James M. Cannon, a member of the Ford administration, wrote in a Ford biography that the Kings' separation and divorce were sparked when, a few days after Ford's birth, Leslie King threatened Dorothy with a butcher knife and threatened to kill her, Ford, and Ford's nursemaid. Ford later told confidantes that his father had first hit his mother on their honeymoon for smiling at another man.

Ford didn't even know who his biological father was until he was 17 years old. Likewise the father of Bill Clinton (born William Jefferson Blythe III) died three months before he was born, and he started using his stepfather's surname as a teen.

Anyhow, here is a picture of Chief Justice Roberts opining on the subject of Barack Obama's qualifications to be president:



...and, by the way, that is ceremonial. The oath is signed.

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Ummm... I have no idea where you've gotten the impression that his mother, father, and he "stayed together as a happy family for several years". Barack Obama Sr. left Hawaii for Massachusetts not long after President Obama was born, and they were divorced in 1964 when he was two years old. He met his father again when he was something like nine.

Why you believe there is something suspicious about having a baby and then showing up at a college in which one enrolled, or how anyone may or may not have pronounced their name is anyone's guess.

This guy is quoting from Obama's book and other facts that have been uncovered. He wasn't even looking for Barack's Birth roots he was researching his drivers licenses.

"Note that young Obama was lied to by his mother in her deceiving him that they had been one big happy family, when records show they never lived together and Stanley Ann was in Washington immediately after the birth.
Records also show Stanley Ann committed perjury on her divorce papers stating she was 2 years in Hawaii when she had not been. It is submitted she lied, because if she didn't have a proven long term residency and was a gypsy the courts might give junior Obama over to his Kenyan dad and he could then take the child home to Kenya.

It all sounds incredible, but Barack Obama jr. is the one recording what he found and it troubled him deeply."

http://lamecherry.blogspot.com/2009/...a-reveals.html

Another quote

"Why this all matters now is simply this. The long form birth certificate in Hawaii which Barack Obama and his lawyers are hiding, along with the entire state of Hawaii, is not a legal document. His parents are not recorded on it, which means it opens the can of poi as to where was Stanley Ann as she never registered this birth?
That entails the logical line she was not in Hawaii..........and last time humanity checked, umbilical cords do not stretch 10,000 miles, so Bearick Hussein Obama was not in Hawaii either when he was born.

This is what Barack is hiding and what everyone is hiding as the very document of the long form birth certificate is either a newly manufactured one which is a fraud anywhere from 1971 onward ."

As I said an interesting read.

[jberryhill]

Originally Posted by JMJ

This guy is quoting from Obama's book and other facts that have been uncovered.

No, that blog is not quoting from Obama's book. That blog is making stuff up, and you don't know any better because you wouldn't have the foggiest notion what is in either of Obama's books.

It is your gullible ignorance that makes you an easy mark for this kind of thing. It's why you can spout stuff taken from "Freemen on the Land" as your basis for "understanding" law, and think that lawyers are part of some conspiracy to hide the "real truth" about our legal system from heavily armed white supremacist retards in Idaho.

Barack Obama was perfectly aware by the time he was five years old that he had never been living with a father, and that his mother re-married and they moved to Indonesia. How that works into "deceiving him that they were one big happy family" is simply bizarre.

So, let's compare what is at the idiot birther blog, to what is actually in Dreams From My Father.

The idiot birther blog, which YOU THINK quotes the book says this:

Quote from Obama on the Obamafile "Years later, when Obama was in high school, he found a family stash of birth certificates and old vaccination forms. Why wasn't his name there, or his mother's? He wondered, he later wrote, "whether the omission caused a fight between my parents."

This is a very strange question. Why would Obama, now in his teens, wonder about a conflict that may have happened when he was a year old? What is he saying in this passage?

Is he saying there was no birth certificate for his mother and he, or is he saying something else?
end quote.

What the Obamafile missed is something related above. Bearick Obama was not saying HIS name was missing, he was saying that his dad's name was missing from the long form birth certificate.
It gets one better as Bearick Obama states, that not even his mother's name was present on the birth certificate.

Now, first of all, you have to realize that the "quote" is immediately obvious as screwy, because Obama would not refer to himself as either "Obama" or "he".

But let's take a look at what the relevant passage in the book ACTUALLY SAYS:

http://books.google.com/books?id=TFw...age&q=&f=false

In a passage talking about a newspaper article about his father, the book says:

I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms when I was in high school. It's a short piece with a photograph of him. No mention is made of my mother or me, and I'm left to wonder whether the omission was intentional on my father's part, in anticipation of his long departure. Perhaps the reporter failed to ask personal questions, intimidated by my father's imperious manner; or perhaps it was an editorial decision, not part of the simple story that they were looking for. I wonder, too, whether the omission caused a fight between my parents.

Now, do you understand the quote from the book? He is talking about a newspaper article which was a profile of his father, and the newspaper article doesn't mention Barack Obama's mother or him - IN THE NEWSPAPER ARTICLE.

But because you are too gullible or stupid to actually check whether someone is lying to you, then you take it as gospel from some blog that the passage in question refers to names missing from the birth certificate, when it is perfectly clear from the passage in question, that he is talking about persons not mentioned in the newspaper article.

That blog post is absolute crap, but you cling to it because you have a psychological need to believe that horse shit.

Now, I've included a link to the actual book page in Dreams From My Father. You are going to sit there and say that blog post has any rational relationship to that passage in the book?

If you are too dense to understand that passage is talking about a newspaper article, then there is something seriously wrong with your reading comprehension.

Records also show Stanley Ann committed perjury on her divorce papers stating she was 2 years in Hawaii when she had not been.

Wrong again. But I'll give you partial credit here, because it is clear that you were never a dependent attending college in one state, while maintaining your legal residence in your home state - as most college students do (and which used to be more common than it is now).

Try this, for an example:

http://www.nygearup.org/collegesense...ency/index.htm

Legal residence means that the student currently resides in New York State and intends to remain in New York after graduation. The act of simply living in New York State does not demonstrate residency. The student must provide documentation establishing a permanent home. Documentation can consist of a lease and utility bills in the student's name. Living in the state solely for the purposes of attending college does not, in itself, constitute legal residency.

If you live in one state, and you go to another state for the purpose of attending college, you do not, in a lot of states, become a resident of the state where you are attending college. Stanley Dunham was a resident of Hawaii who was attending school in Washington. It is absolutely correct that she did not establish a permanent residence in Washington during her time there as a student, and she remained a legal resident of Hawaii for the entire time - and that's what it says in the divorce papers.

Do you really think state colleges which offer lower tuition for "in state" students than for "out of state students" are stupid enough to have to offer everyone the discount because, after all, once they start attending the college they become "in state" students?

It takes about two seconds worth of reflection to realize that the line about "lying" in her divorce about having been a resident of Hawaii is the result of weapons-grade stupidity.

But I don't think, at its root, it is entirely stupidity at work. It takes a lot of intentional distortion to come up with "names missing from a birth certificate" from that passage talking about names which weren't in a newspaper article, since the passage is most directly and clearly referring to the newspaper article which he found among some other papers. No, that's not stupid, that's intentional deception intended for a stupid audience.

And you bought it.

[fab]

Do you really think state colleges which offer lower tuition for "in state" students than for "out of state students" are stupid enough to have to offer everyone the discount because, after all, once they start attending the college they become "in state" students?

Correct, this happened to me as well, and I know this is true in both Ca. and NY.

[JMJ]

John I'm not gullible your boy is playing games. IE What his myspace page reads right now. Like I said before I really didn't plan on getting into this whole "birther" ordeal but it comes with the territory when you're looking into this scumbag.

Male
52 years old
Washington, Washington DC
United States
http://www.myspace.com/barackobama

For anyone interested in more Obama dots a guy on Republixs has some juicy info

Look for

(Real-deal research) Obamaunism 101: The Stanley Ann and Madelyn Dunham factor (v 2.0)

http://www.repubx.com/

Looking like his mom went by multiple names as well.


I haven't bought anything, yet. You should note I said "good scenario going" not "I believe everything I read.." You have to weed through a lot of disinfo to find the real info. My legal argument is historical fact. You have your scenario which you depend on for a living. I have my theory. I never expected you to come out and say. "Oh you got me.." I just wanted to see what you would say. You played it how I expected. Discounting the entire scenario with no evidence to the contrary. That is outside of you adl link which again you'll have to do much better than that.

He's going to rain on your parade mark my words. I was for him before I was against him. It didn't take long for me to figure out he was just another lying politician.

[fab]

Male
52 years old
Washington, Washington DC
United States

Is he 52?

[JMJ]

Originally Posted by fab

Is he 52?

Personally I think someone is playing games like I said. They changed the birth date that's for sure. Story will come out to either be a "rogue employee" or a "hacker" that was only interested in changing his birthdate..

http://web.archive.org/web/200704100...om/barackobama

[Gregcyber]

Male
52 years old
Washington, Washington DC
United States
http://www.myspace.com/barackobama


Any way you call it.

Obama is a factual Lier, con man and the leader of the USA

[jberryhill]

John I'm not gullible your boy is playing games.

You are gullible. You have absolutely no response to the fact that the Lamecherry blog post is a deliberate distortion of the actual passage from the book, and you said "This guy is quoting from Obama's book". That's utter crap, and you know it.

As you might recall, neither Obama nor the campaign set up the Myspace account, which was originally established by a volunteer. But, sure... the President screws around all day with a Myspace account, just to give idiots something to chew on.

No, fab, he's not 52. JMJ went through this whole digression on the fact that his mother was in Washington state for the start of classes in late summer 1961, a little over two weeks after Obama was born, but now wants to change his mind on that.

I was for him before I was against him.

Sure you were. People in the habit of referring to African American men as "boy" are usually early Obama supporters.

And, of course, none of the case law cited on the ADL website can possibly be real because they are Jews, right?

Looking like his mom went by multiple names as well.

Yes, she did. She was married twice.

[think]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

It was a joke John... While I firmly believe Barack Obama is the Trevi Fountain of douche bags, I would never seriously question the paternal bond between him and the now infamous Barack "I'd rather chuck spears in Kenya than raise my own child" Obama, Sr.

Please don't stop there. Tell us how you really feel..........

[Doc Com]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

But, sure... the President screws around all day with a Myspace account, just to give idiots something to chew on.

ah HA HA HA HA HA HA

[Gregcyber]

Obama, the President screws around all day with a Myspace account, just to give idiots something to chew on.

He does believe a bunch of US tax payers are idiots.

Thanks for clearing that one up.

[jberryhill]

Is he 52?

And, just to clue you in. Among the various mutually-conflicting birther theories is that Barack Obama was born prior to Hawaii becoming a state, so the Myspace thing is a big deal to them.

In birtherland, they can't quite figure out why anyone got upset over the Japanese attack on the US on December 7, 1941.

(Yes, Hawaii was a territory of the US, and people born there were US citizens, just as people born in Puerto Rico are US citizens. This question was resolved when Barry Goldwater - born in Arizona territory - ran against Kennedy.)

[fab]

No, fab, he's not 52.

So who screwed up the MySpace?