Jewish settler’s attack Palestinians on film

[dotancohen]

I only read the first few posts of the thread, so I'm sure that I've missed something important, but I think that a few facts are in order.

First of all, regarding the residents of Susia: Susia is a Hebron-area settlement. In general, the Jews who live in the settlements surrounding Hebron are violent extremists and are not loyal to the Israeli state nor Israeli authority. The Hebron-area settlers attack Jews and Palestinians alike. They are known for throwing rocks at the Israeli army, just like the Palestinians do. The settlers of Hebron are radical pseudo-religious and have neither morals, nor loyalty, nor even basic manners, and are motivated only by fundamental Zionism that is embarrassing and not representative of the Israeli population as a whole, nor of the average settler.

Those who live in lands with strong rules of law may find this unusual, but in the West Bank there is a conflict between Jordanian, Palestinian, Israeli, and local rule. Often, adjoining hilltops are maintained by different entities, and while some hilltops are of the subject of fighting over who rules them, other hilltops are the subject over who does not rule them. Nobody but the locals want Susia or many of the other area settlements, and so long as the residents stay on their hilltop and don't bother anyone, nobody goes to that hilltop to bother them. The status quo (leaving things as they are) in this regard has saved many lives and prevented many problems, and although it is obviously not an ideal situation, this is a minor situation that pales in comparison to the larger, more general status quo prevailing in the area. What do you think happens to Israelis who accidentally enter Palestinian villages? Lynch is what happens, and it's happened more than once.

What neighborhoods are there in your region that you dare not enter? There are parts of London, Los Angeles, Madrid, New York, Miami, Moscow, Johannesburg, and most other population centers of the world where those who are not of the local variety of minority put themselves in danger just by entering.

Note that I am not excusing the residents of Susia for their actions. They are disgusting zealots and I make no justification for their actions. However, there are a few points that I would like to make:
* The Palestinians who entered the Susia land knew very well what was going to happen. They were not caught 'off guard'. When they left the house, they headed into a 'bad neighborhood' with the intent of provoking a response. They even made sure to bring a video camera to film the incident.
* The Susia residents gave them ten minutes warning to leave. That is more than fair. I do not think that the residents of Compton would give me ten minutes warning before they mugged me should I accidentally stumble onto their turf. And in this case, the Palestinians did not 'stumble onto their turf'. They deliberately entered knowing that an incident would occur, and stayed after getting a warning.
* The Palestinians were grazing their animals on the Susia land. Grazing land is food, and it is scarce. This is the same as me taking my dog to your yard so that he could eat your dog's food. How much warning would you give me to leave if I did that to you? Ten minutes?

While I find the residents of Susia and most other area settlements terrible people and I would be the first to criticize them, in this particular case I am actually impressed with the restraint and fair warning that they gave to the Palestinians. I do not excuse the beating in any way, however, what recourse did they have? To call the police? Which police, the Israeli police (not their jurisdiction), the Jordanian police (the Jordanians only administer very limited municipalities, they do not perform police work), or the Palestinian police (largely non-existent, especially in that particular area)? The Susia residents sent a clear message "don't trespass" and gave fair warning before that.

[tetrapak]

Dotancohen, thanks for the insight, i didn't know about these details, very interesting.

[TheLegendaryJP]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Which part of the illegal occupation is too complex for you to understand? Is it the Gaza blockades, the continual annexation of Palestinian owned land, the illegal settlements in the West Bank, the West Bank barrier perhaps? How about the constant demolition of homes and key infrastructure? Maybe it's the 40 to 1 death toll, the majority of which happen to be Palestinian civilians? I also suppose the constant stream of condemnation of Israel by the UN, most of Europe, the Red Cross, Amnesty International, and numerous other credible organizations, is all meaningless left wing propaganda, or neo antisemitism? And that's just scratching the contemporary surface of the reality, heaven forbid you start digging deeper into the history of the conflict, where you're guaranteed to trip over documented massacres, and other war crimes committed by Israel throughout it's brief history [in both Palestine and Lebanon, the USS Liberty, etc.].

What was the main reason the terrorists gave for attacking New York City and the Pentagon on September 11, 2001? If you don't remember, search for that answer and get back to me. You're Canadian, so your hard earned tax dollars aren't supplying Israel with weapons and aid, so it's understandable that you aren't pressed to clearly investigate a well documented conflict. The credibility of the United States, my country, is soiled over this issue.

You seem quite one sided and that is fine, your choice. The reason I am somewhat neutral and call it complex is because the ENTIRE situation dates back much further than the issues you state. That is why to me it is complex. Each have done things to each other. No one is clearly innocent in it all and who started what is a moot point now. To be completely frank I am ashamed to see either side choose violence but can see where it is justified in rare cases ( not suicide bombers ). Injustices are nothing new, nothing isolated to a certain region or race. How we handle those situations speaks volumes about ourselves. I say if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. I am not open to debating who is right and who did what to whom and when. Whats done is done and either start an all out war over it and drop the big one or stop the violence. It is clear that suicide bombers, assasinating Hamas leaders and so on is a back and forth thing that settles nothing. It is a shame innocent people die as a result. War is not a easy choice to make and imo the Israelis have withheld doing what others might have ( like the US ) . Thats all. It is a VERY complex isssue and for you to state otherwise is quite telling. If such actions are so black and white the next timea rocket is fired into a settlement I suggest Israel wipe them out , full on war ! After all its not complex, they shot a rocket, we start war, right ? Or maybe the Palestinians start a full out attack as Israel took their land and drop a bomb from Iran ? If you want to dumb things down you will live with the consequences. Its complex.

[Seraphim]

Originally Posted by TheLegendaryJP

You seem quite one sided and that is fine, your choice. The reason I am somewhat neutral and call it complex is because the ENTIRE situation dates back much further than the issues you state. That is why to me it is complex. Each have done things to each other. No one is clearly innocent in it all and who started what is a moot point now. To be completely frank I am ashamed to see either side choose violence but can see where it is justified in rare cases ( not suicide bombers ). Injustices are nothing new, nothing isolated to a certain region or race. How we handle those situations speaks volumes about ourselves. I say if you live by the sword you will die by the sword. I am not open to debating who is right and who did what to whom and when. Whats done is done and either start an all out war over it and drop the big one or stop the violence. It is clear that suicide bombers, assasinating Hamas leaders and so on is a back and forth thing that settles nothing. It is a shame innocent people die as a result. War is not a easy choice to make and imo the Israelis have withheld doing what others might have ( like the US ) . Thats all. It is a VERY complex isssue and for you to state otherwise is quite telling. If such actions are so black and white the next timea rocket is fired into a settlement I suggest Israel wipe them out , full on war ! After all its not complex, they shot a rocket, we start war, right ? Or maybe the Palestinians start a full out attack as Israel took their land and drop a bomb from Iran ? If you want to dumb things down you will live with the consequences. Its complex.

You're pushing "obvious" down a 2mm trajectory into a pool of absurdity, and then mixing it with lack of understanding and your own complacency. I don't dance with projections.

Peace to both Palestine and Israel. I'm done with this thread.

[TheLegendaryJP]

Originally Posted by Seraphim

You're pushing "obvious" down a 2mm trajectory into a pool of absurdity, and then mixing it with lack of understanding and your own complacency. I don't dance with projections.

Peace to both Palestine and Israel. I'm done with this thread.

Well, I push the obvious because again it is too complex to simply state whom is " right and wrong ". Not sure where my absurity lies and as for my understanding the situation, while I am not a know it all on the subject I do know that for the time being complacent is the only real option other then all out war. A war Israel would win imo. So if you would like to remove complacency and insert action, each has a reaction, one in which we do not want to feel the consiquences of to be honest. So even if Israel is victorious as a result of war we would all lose in some form and a world wide instability would insue. So the options at the moment to deal with the suicide bombings and reactions of the Israelis is all we got. I dont want to see a war because I am pro anyone, I dont want to see a war because I am pro stability in the world. The only way the violence stops is one side accepting the other to be right and them wrong. Very unlikely to occur in my life time and perhaps another war is needed to end the conflict but I hope not.

Sometimes in life you can be right or have a valid point but it isnt worth the price you will pay ( isolation, containment, walls, retailiation attacks, loss of innocent life, lan and so on ). I believe it wouldnt matter what Israel did the situation would persist. The ultimate action of folding is not one so thus we are at a stale mate. Again live by the sword, die by the sword. Hate is a very strong emotion that has its consiquences.

[izoot]

Originally Posted by theinvestor

How do you know those suicide bombers are truly palestinian?

Well, Hamas and IJ make sure to release videos taking responsibility for those suicide attacks. That is pretty much a "dead" give away.

Originally Posted by theinvestor

Please elaborate on that.

So you are trying to tell me the way you defend against suicide bombers is by terrorist attacks that kill hundreds of palestinians?

Hundreds of Palestinians at a time? You must be confusing when Sunni slaughter Shia or Shis slaughter Sunni in Iraq. Could you supply links please?

Let's not make this conversation longer than it has to be...but remember in 2006 when apparently palestine kidnapped an israeli soldier?

Apparently?

Israel then kidnapped 21 palestinians...and killed over 200.

Kidnapped? You mean arrested ( rather than killed ) Palestinians taking part in violence? And again could you document this slaughter of 200?

I see what you're saying though...1 israeli life is worth much more than hundreds of palestinians.

Wow gotta love a good semantic game. Who ever stated the above? You might want to give thought that those Palestinians who are under experienced, under armed ect that attack the IDF are not making good choice by attacking heavily armed soldiers. Especially since all their past attacks over the decade have proven to be completely worthless in accomplishing anything positive for them. I always find it interesting that some people think the Palestinians should be able to commit acts of violence against Israel, Israelis and IDF and not have reprecussions for their actions.

Seems to me that the United states is exactly like Israel. In which an iraqi life is worth much less than an americans life.

Seems to me that people like yourself that take such a one sided view on Israel do so in Iraq as well. ( I am not advocating the war in IRaq btw ) But folks like yourself seem to always totally avoid addessing the fact that the majority of deaths in Iraq is from sectarian violence. Muslim against Muslim.
( Mostly from Iran sponsored insurgents ) Doesn't that bother you at all? Or do you blame their actions on the US and Israel? ( btw Israel has nothing to do with Iraq )

So while you are at it...explain how going to IRAQ and killing innocent people ..has in fact helped us defend our country? Aren't we just being terrorists too?

You're right Saddam should have been left to his ways. He kept terrorism squashed in his realm .. of course that came at the suffering of his own people and put them at the mercy of his sadistic sons and cohorts but hey thats another story.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Palestinians own swatches of land in East Jerusalem, you should also realize a large portion of Arabs have Israeli citizenship. Every Jew I know would call you a brainwashed idiot.

Could you show some links to credible sites that state that Israel wants Jerusalem Arab free? I can't seem to find that on anything but the propaganda sites. I can see no reason that Jews Arabs Christions ect can't all live in Jerusalem. The Issue is and has been who will govern it.

The only ones calling for ethnic cleansing of land has been Palestinians and their supporters. Well they got gaza back Jew free and with opportunities to build an economy and the ability to end the violence. Instead hamas took over and made it a rocket firing base, destroyed all the agro business that was there and made it a bigger terrorist base than ever. Whats the phrase ... fool me once shame on you ... fool me twice shame on me? There is no mistaking what hamas spoken goal is. And its not peace.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

What should happen to Palestinians who own land in the city? You just said you aren't a Zionist?

They should be able to live there peacefully just as other people who own land do.

[Seraphim]

izoot, I said I'm out of the conversation, and for precisely the following reason. My statement that you've quoted was a response to bd77 stating that Palestinians could live in Jerusalem, as long as they understood that it belongs to Israel (including East Jerusalem). Read the whole the conversion next time, instead of picking and choosing comments, then replying to them out of context. It's a sensitive political issue, so naturally I don't appreciate someone taking liberties with what I said, and then posting rebuttal as if you're contradicting my stance on the subject.

I'm out of this conversion, thanks again, and peace to all.

[tristanperry]

I haven't read the entire thread, although this is (obviously) really bad.

However this wouldn't be an official group; only a small minority would think and act this way.

If this was an official thing, a cease-fire wouldn't have today been agreed upon.

[HarveyJ]

It's the fault of the Palestinians for consistently attacking Israel...
It's the fault of the Israelies for annexing land during the 6 Day war...
It's the fault of the US for supplying funds and armaments to Israel...
It's the fault of Russia supplying funds and armaments to terrorist groups...
It's the fault of the Jordinians and Egyptians for annexing what little land was left over that was meant to be for Palestine...
It's the fault of the British for taking the land and giving it to the Jews after WW2...
It's the fault of the Spanish for the Inquisition...
It's the fault of Mohammed for not being clear...
It's the fault of the Romans for suppressing Judea...
It's the fault Laban The Armenean for dealing unfairly with Jacob and his snappy jacket...


Frankly, it's everyone's fault but mine...

[dotancohen]

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

It's the fault of the Palestinians for consistently attacking Israel...
It's the fault of the Israelies for annexing land during the 6 Day war...
It's the fault of the US for supplying funds and armaments to Israel...
It's the fault of Russia supplying funds and armaments to terrorist groups...
It's the fault of the Jordinians and Egyptians for annexing what little land was left over that was meant to be for Palestine...
It's the fault of the British for taking the land and giving it to the Jews after WW2...
It's the fault of the Spanish for the Inquisition...
It's the fault of Mohammed for not being clear...
It's the fault of the Romans for suppressing Judea...
It's the fault Laban The Armenean for dealing unfairly with Jacob and his snappy jacket...


Frankly, it's everyone's fault but mine...

This is genius! +5 Insightfull

[Ebiz4india]

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

It's the fault of the Palestinians for consistently attacking Israel...
It's the fault of the Israelies for annexing land during the 6 Day war...
It's the fault of the US for supplying funds and armaments to Israel...
It's the fault of Russia supplying funds and armaments to terrorist groups...
It's the fault of the Jordinians and Egyptians for annexing what little land was left over that was meant to be for Palestine...
It's the fault of the British for taking the land and giving it to the Jews after WW2...
It's the fault of the Spanish for the Inquisition...
It's the fault of Mohammed for not being clear...
It's the fault of the Romans for suppressing Judea...
It's the fault Laban The Armenean for dealing unfairly with Jacob and his snappy jacket...


Frankly, it's everyone's fault but mine...

Trying to prove someone/everybody else wrong, does not mean that you are correct.

[amcdonald]

this thread pretty well sums up why there is no peace in the region. Too many people that know very little acting as if they know everything about this very complex and volatile situation.

[theinvestor]

Originally Posted by izoot

Well, Hamas and IJ make sure to release videos taking responsibility for those suicide attacks. That is pretty much a "dead" give away.

This was a response to the post made by bd77 ...of how we would know that they were jews beating on palestinians in the intial post.

But i'm glad you read it...

Originally Posted by izoot

Hundreds of Palestinians at a time? You must be confusing when Sunni slaughter Shia or Shis slaughter Sunni in Iraq. Could you supply links please?.

Where did i say that it was hundreds of palestinians at a time? I said...when there are suicide bombings it results in deaths. If you don't believe that...then why not learn to use google and see the death toll on israeli's vs palestinians...which is higher?? and by how much??

Originally Posted by izoot

Kidnapped? You mean arrested ( rather than killed ) Palestinians taking part in violence? And again could you document this slaughter of 200?.

http://political-analysis.org/polit3/id1.html

Read it...21 palestinians were kidnapped....and what do you know..i even found a link where 200 palestinians were slaughtered from ONE israeli assault.

If you're not happy with source..it's available in many other sources...Use GOOGLE.

Originally Posted by izoot

Wow gotta love a good semantic game. Who ever stated the above? You might want to give thought that those Palestinians who are under experienced, under armed ect that attack the IDF are not making good choice by attacking heavily armed soldiers. Especially since all their past attacks over the decade have proven to be completely worthless in accomplishing anything positive for them. I always find it interesting that some people think the Palestinians should be able to commit acts of violence against Israel, Israelis and IDF and not have reprecussions for their actions.

Again, before making posts...read the thread. When palestinians are killed...there is no news. Only when suicide bombers kill israeli's. I will make it simple for you ..since you appear to to read an entire thread. Here is the link :http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

The heavily armed soldiers...are armed by the United States. Sounds like an even playing field...research WHY palestinians do suicide attacks. It's more complex than you think...and it's a form of a last resort.

Originally Posted by izoot

Seems to me that people like yourself that take such a one sided view on Israel do so in Iraq as well. ( I am not advocating the war in IRaq btw ) But folks like yourself seem to always totally avoid addessing the fact that the majority of deaths in Iraq is from sectarian violence. Muslim against Muslim.
( Mostly from Iran sponsored insurgents ) Doesn't that bother you at all? Or do you blame their actions on the US and Israel? ( btw Israel has nothing to do with Iraq ).

Yes..usually people against violence against innocent civilians are against it in every country. You support the U.S. therefore you support Israel..you're one sided..not me.

[dotancohen]

Originally Posted by theinvestor

...then why not learn to use google and see the death toll on israeli's vs palestinians...which is higher?? and by how much??

That probably has something to do with the differences in the value of life between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The Jews and Christians believe that life is precious, and is to be preserved. The goal of Jewish and Christian men is to live a long, productive life. However, Muslims value Heaven after death. The goal of Muslim men is to go to Heaven, and to ensure a place in Heaven for their loved ones. They have no desire for long life, quite the opposite, they have a desire to get to Heaven. There really is nothing wrong with that viewpoint. For most Muslims, that viewpoint means being a caring person, and loving your neighbor. However, some see it as an invitation for violence, as one of the ways to get to Heaven is to defend the Muslim faith. It is these people who kill not only their enemies, but also their own people and their own families, to get to Heaven. Not uncommon is the Palestinian gunman with an AK-74 (that is not a typo) in one arm and his own son in the other. Anyone who has fired an assault rifle will tell you that you are not going to hit much with only one hand on the weapon, however, this is how they appear from behind walls and windows and fire on Israeli patrols. What do you think Israeli soldiers do when someone is shooting at them from behind a wall? What would you want your son to do when someone is shooting at him from behind a wall? That's right, they return directed, accurate fire. They help the man, and his son in his arms, get to Heaven quickly.

[theinvestor]

I am referring to deaths resulting from violent acts from the other side. I am not talking about palestinians who commit suicide and then including that part of the toll.

Even if i did, that does not cause a 10 to 1 death rate.

That's what happens when you give one side guns...and the other side rocks. It's a pretty fair war

[Banned: domain newbie]

Originally Posted by dotancohen last post

...

good comparison, datacohen- as always I agree- all roots to troubles, hatred and sufferings aka - "sacrifice", lies in religions, normally in the most, but especially the extreme ones

to not believe in heaven = to not believe in hell


i recommend to dump all religions in the name of

"in business we trust" - get rich. buy your land

(shameless add)

[izoot]

Originally Posted by theinvestor

I am referring to deaths resulting from violent acts from the other side. I am not talking about palestinians who commit suicide and then including that part of the toll.

Even if i did, that does not cause a 10 to 1 death rate.

That's what happens when you give one side guns...and the other side rocks. It's a pretty fair war

Thanks for sharing just how little you know of the conflict besides what the propaganda sites feed you.

The bottom line is that the Palestinians need to end the violence. Its failed them for the last 80 years and will continue to fail. Groups like hamas don't have the Palestinians best interests in mind. Which would to be finding a mutually agreeable solution to this conflict WITH Israel ... where 2 states could be formed and both peoples live and work in peace.

For hamas and its sponsors its all about destroying Israel whether by violence or demographics. At whatever cost to the Palestinian people ... they make that abundantly clear all the time. Its sad so many refuse to believe what those they defend openly say.

There is no other choice but to find a peaceful solution. Israel and the Jews are not going to disappear because extremists click their heels together and make a wish.

I want nothing more than to see a peaceful solution for BOTH parties but as long as missiles are falling, Palestinians are blowing up, snipers shooting at Israelis ( Jew and Arab ) Israel will respond in defense of its people ... and the Palestinians will have no place to cry how they are victims. They know the reaction their violent acts will bring ... and they CHOOSE to do them anyhow and try to capitalize on the deaths in the media.

[HarveyJ]

Originally Posted by Ebiz4india

Trying to prove someone/everybody else wrong, does not mean that you are correct.

Hey, as an Aussie, my hands are about as clean as it gets.
The Jews were offered the island state of Tasmania to be their new homeland after WW2, as one of several options provided by the British.

In a way they were smart not to take it.
There ARE more people in Israel than in Tasmania, and Tasmania is bloody cold (although it does have excellent natural resources, the cleanest water sources anywhere in the developed 1st world and so much natural beauty outside of the cities it can make you cry). It's also not the ancestral homeland.
On the other hand, they were stupid not to.
Nothing works better as a shield than the worlds largest island, and Tasmania also happens to have a shitload of exploitable fuel resources off of its coast line.

[HomerJ]

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

Hey, as an Aussie, my hands are about as clean as it gets.
The Jews were offered the island state of Tasmania to be their new homeland after WW2, as one of several options provided by the British.

In a way they were smart not to take it.
There ARE more people in Israel than in Tasmania, and Tasmania is bloody cold (although it does have excellent natural resources, the cleanest water sources anywhere in the developed 1st world and so much natural beauty outside of the cities it can make you cry). It's also not the ancestral homeland.
On the other hand, they were stupid not to.
Nothing works better as a shield than the worlds largest island, and Tasmania also happens to have a shitload of exploitable fuel resources off of its coast line.

Yea... that and its also not home to the Dome of the Rock, aka Solomons Temple, aka the Al Aqsa Mosque.

[dotancohen]

I am referring to deaths resulting from violent acts from the other side. I am not talking about palestinians who commit suicide and then including that part of the toll.

Even if i did, that does not cause a 10 to 1 death rate.

That's what happens when you give one side guns...and the other side rocks. It's a pretty fair war

For one thing, I am also talking about the same incidents that you are referring to. You cannot measure the 'success' or 'failure' of war by the death rate, especially in a context where one side is motivated to sacrifice itself. It is a folly of war films that the goal of war might be to kill the other side. Especially in the context where the other side is hiding among it's own population, the killing of the enemy is a very delicate act. It is very difficult to single out the terrorist shooting from within a population center, even if he is positively identified for a few seconds time.

As for one side having guns and the other one not having guns, I think that you are confusing two different aspects of the conflict. Early in the current (2000-present) Palestinian-Israeli conflict Palestinian children were organized to use slingshots, throw rocks, and throw bricks from buildings on Israeli soldiers. These events were very, very rarely confronted with retaliatory action from Israeli solders, and in the rare occasions where force was displayed, it was not directed in such a manner as to hurt the children. In addition to children throwing rocks, slingshots, and dropping bricks on soldiers, there were armed adults shooting at Israeli solders, there were suicide bombers, there were booby-trapped villages, and other forms of violence. Naturally, a man shooting at a soldier would meet return fire. In this case, it is the better trained man who will live in most cases. That is the Israelis, mind you. I do not think that I need to discuss suicide bombers, but I will discuss booby-trapped cities. Very often, buildings and especially dumpsters would be booby trapped with explosives. This has a very large chance of killing Israeli solders, in fact, the practice was so dangerous that many soldiers had sent Palestinian civilians into suspected buildings before them, to weed out booby traps. Many, many people were killed this way. The practice was deemed illegal by a high Israeli court, and is no longer practiced. Regarding the booby traps that were not detonated during operations, you can guess what happens to them. Yes, even the children martyrs who are killed by their neighbors' booby traps are considered to have died in the protection of Islam. They are cherished and they are in Heaven, and they are reported as being killed in battle. That means that Israel killed them, in the narrow viewpoint of those interested, and that is how the incident is reported.

Regarding slingshots: if you have never compared a slingshot wound to a bullet wound, then you might see this as one sided. Bullets wounds to the chest and head are extremely severe, and often fatal. Slingshot wounds to the chest and head are no less severe than bullet wounds. Although they have far less penetration, they cause no less trauma to the tissues around and below the area of impact. There is more crushing and tearing in the case of slingshot wounds, and much more severe bleeding. In the case of survival (which is no better for slingshots than for bullets) the slingshot wound often leaves far more damaged skin, muscle, and bones, and requires more extensive corrective surgery. A slingshot wound to the head is no less fatal than a bullet wound. Note that I've only discussed chest and head wounds, not arms and legs. Arm and leg wounds are rarely fatal. Even in the event of arm and leg wounds, slingshots cause damage comparable (though of a different type) to bullets.

I will now discuss thrown rocks. Thrown rocks are very rarely fatal, even in head wounds. Usually, the rock throwers are coordinated by at least one armed (although non-participating) adult. The rocks are thrown together, to have a rain-like effect. This is more to slow down the advancement of Israeli troops than to hurt them. Thrown rocks are almost never met with force, and certainly not with live ammunition.

Bricks thrown from buildings: more dangerous than rocks, slingshots, or rifles. Israeli solders learned to deal with the threat very quickly. This type of violence is countered with force.

Originally Posted by domain newbie

good comparison, datacohen- as always I agree- all roots to troubles, hatred and sufferings aka - "sacrifice", lies in religions, normally in the most, but especially the extreme ones

to not believe in heaven = to not believe in hell

i recommend to dump all religions in the name of

I really do not think that the root of the current problem is religion. Most religious men (Muslim and Jew alike) would not kill their neighbor. However, smart leaders can lead people by the nose of their religion to do terrible things. The Muslim belief in Heaven helps most Muslims lead quality productive lives, and to be generally good people. It is the leaders with an agenda, and the easily persuaded, who do not understand how they are being misled by their leaders.

I should also add, that I have no illusions about Palestinian hardships. Regarding Gaza specifically, but also in the West Bank, there is little work and food is often scarce. Joining Hamas is a way to find work. It is a way to be a respectful contributor and to bring home a paycheck. I am certain that I would be tempted to do the same, should I find myself in need of feeding my family. Most Israelis feel the same. This is not a war of the Israeli people against the Palestinian people. It is a war of Western values against a few extremists who herd their people like sheep to do terrible things. That is why the US has such a deep interest in the conflict, by the way. Most Israelis understand the Palestinian's hardships, and would do what they can to support the people, but not the government, of the Palestinian territories. That is why groups like B'tzelem hand out video cameras and other forms of support.

Originally Posted by HarveyJ

Hey, as an Aussie, my hands are about as clean as it gets.
The Jews were offered the island state of Tasmania to be their new homeland after WW2, as one of several options provided by the British.

In a way they were smart not to take it.
There ARE more people in Israel than in Tasmania, and Tasmania is bloody cold (although it does have excellent natural resources, the cleanest water sources anywhere in the developed 1st world and so much natural beauty outside of the cities it can make you cry). It's also not the ancestral homeland.
On the other hand, they were stupid not to.
Nothing works better as a shield than the worlds largest island, and Tasmania also happens to have a shitload of exploitable fuel resources off of its coast line.

Maybe the Palestinians should be offered the same thing? See if they take it. Land is not the major issue in the fighting, though it is a major issue in the proposed solutions.