No-fly zone in Libya

[elius]

Draggar, since when is the USA a 40 year+ dictatorship with a loony suppressing his people, torturing his opponents and actively supporting terrorism? There may be a lot wrong with the democratic system (most of all the influence of business on it) but the US is still a democracy anyway and its people still have their freedom although some like to pretend they don't. America is nothing like Libya. The militia's have a warped view of freedom. They are closet anarchists.

[TheLegendaryJP]

The main reason we have seen no action yet from other countries is simple, they believe the economy and the world is a safer place with him in charge of Libya, that simple.

Dictator or not the road that country would take (his opposition) is clear, Islamic rule, right now that is not a government that anyone besides Iran would smile about. The fact may very well be that a dictator who has seemed to slow down is a better option. I think it is sad but speaks volumes as to the way Islamic rule is perceived by most of the world.

Keeping new terrorism, human rights and the economy in place means allowing a dictator to rule, harsh as it may sound it is why everyone is sitting on their hands. In fact not to many weeks ago a hadnful of british special ops were KIDNAPPED by the opposition when they dropped in to help (later released). I had to laugh when CHINA voted for a no fly zone over Libya... hello pot, meet kettle, how don't the rest of the UN members not throw up when they witness that.

Personally I would have to take the side that preserved the most lives. That may mean leaving a dictator in place, jmo.

[Dale Hubbard]

Rumour has it that all of the 12 jet fighters in the Qatar arsenal are heading for the fray. This needs to happen IMO. The Arabs shouldn't all be sitting on the fence.

[draggar]

Draggar, since when is the USA a 40 year+ dictatorship with a loony suppressing his people, torturing his opponents and actively supporting terrorism? There may be a lot wrong with the democratic system (most of all the influence of business on it) but the US is still a democracy anyway and its people still have their freedom although some like to pretend they don't. America is nothing like Libya. The militia's have a warped view of freedom. They are closet anarchists.

It was a hypothetical scenario.

France, US, and the UK have been committed.

Canada, Spain, Italy, Qatar, and UAE are also committed.

This didn't take long - up about an hour ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey_Dawn

News is confirming radio jamming and AWAC presence.

[Gerry]

Rumour has it that all of the 12 jet fighters in the Qatar arsenal are heading for the fray. This needs to happen IMO. The Arabs shouldn't all be sitting on the fence.

That would be nice.

Canada has planes enroute to Italy (Aviano Air Base would be my guess. My old stomping grounds...)

[Bill Roy]

Information also that Turkey and some Eastern European nations are on the point of committing.

Of course Egypt although not committing (publicly) seem key in keeping 'humanitarian' aid getting in. The actual definition of 'humanitarian' could be in the most broadest sense.

Latest reports are the French took out 4 or 5 tanks and an armoured vehicle outside Benghazi in the earlier encounter.

[elius]

Draggar, I didn't get that from what you said because it seemed you where talking about the present day US. Thanks for clearing it up.

JP: for a long time the dictator had been let in place even when he admitted having been behind the Lockerbie attack. Now that there's a good amount of his own people who want to boot him, it seems to be a good idea to give them a little help. Sure, you don't know what you'll get instead but when you're able to be part of the process maybe you can change something for the better.

About neigbouring countries getting involved; since most of them tend to be a lot like Libya including the protests and all, I don't think many of them will join this action.

[Eraser]

Search Libya in google news for 2009-2010 period. There is NO result!

[Gee]

Rumour has it that all of the 12 jet fighters in the Qatar arsenal are heading for the fray. This needs to happen IMO. The Arabs shouldn't all be sitting on the fence.

arab league is now condemning what is happening in libya, killing civilians is a crusade war !!!

amr moussa is afraid of accusations from radical muslims of "helping invasion of muslim country by crusaders"!!!, He plans to run for egypt presidency and he doesnt want to loose credibility

amr moussa says " this is not what we asked for " !

now gaddafi allies will increase and opposition groups will be bashed completely :(

[Gerry]

arab league is now condemning what is happening in libya, killing civilians is a crusade war !!!

but they are okay with the slaughter of civilians with the shelling and bombing of Bengahzi by Ghadafi?








By the way, how many spellings of his last name does he have?
I guess the primary point is everyone knows who we're talking about.

[Bill Roy]

Gee, from listening to Prince Hussein this morning from Amman I did not get the impression you portray.

Also please remember that the heads of Arab league were all consulted yesterday before the first shots were fired. I doubt if the people of Benghazi agree with you, from what I have seen they are rather pleased with the results of yesterday.

Gee can you give us a list of the leaders of the League who condemn the actions and links to their public comments please, I would love to get them posted here.

[Gee]

Gee can you give us a list of the leaders of the League who condemn the actions and links to their public comments please, I would love to get them posted here.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...d7cce7921da560
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/baby...li-kadafi.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...EA962720110320

[Bill Roy]

So we have Amr Moussa, the figure Head of the League, saying this is not what we wanted - but no one else!

Gee, can you explain please how the reported death toll of 48 including civilians (Libyan State sources) equates to the death of 90+ by Gaddafi forces attacking Benghazi with the shelling of civilian neighbourhoods?

Of course Gee we all know that no Civilian should be harmed, is that why Gaddafi is saying he will instigate 'Human sheilds'? Should Allied pilots put themselves at risk by not denegrating the air defence capabilities of Gaddafi? I think not.

Overall this has been a successful strike, and I do not doubt that some civilians may have been injured or even killed either directly or indirectly because the Allied strikes - this happens in conflict. But I wonder how many more will have been saved in the comming weeks by the action? Of course I wonder where all those AA shells landed by the way - you know those that were fired by the Gaddafi supporters last night?

It would seem from rumours filtering through that some 'military units' in Gadaffi's army have suddenly become somewhat short on manpower this morning.

Finally, I just have to wonder about what exactly Amr Moussa wanted, if HE wanted the no-fly zone in the first place that is? I think we shall take more notice of those who are willing to stand up than those pretending to be shocked. Of course Gee, you and others are more than welcome to take on the role of protecting the civilians of Libya if you think you can do better - I am sure there is nothing many in the West would want more, but in the meantime our servicemen and women put their lives at risk to protect the innocent as best they can whilst others shake their heads and ring their hands - normally the action of the bystander who ALWAYS KNOWS BEST.

[RobM]

Watching this from Malta with apprehension. We're 220 miles away from the country, Catholic, and have traded with Gadaffi in the past. I'm sure when Libya has been 'liberated', the oil gone, and he's been replaced with an even more extreme Muslim nutcase we'll be on the end of some of their anger being the nearest EU country. Thanks for poking your noses in once again. Easy to poke the hornet's nest when you're a safe distance away. It's also getting very tiring to hear the 'he's killing civilians so we must remove him' excuse. There are umpteen countries (including 3 in the recent wave of uprisings) that are *still* killing civilians with UK/US knowledge yet nothing is done. Please don't insult our intelligence further with this fake reasoning.

[elius]

there's nothing fake about this reasoning. Dictators and countries differ from eachother. Not every situation lends itself for intervention. Sometimes the situation is just not serious enough to intervene, sometimes it is but in practice it won't do any good or will make it worse. And yes, quite often Western countries have alternate reasons to intervene or not. All this doesn't mean that when a ruler wages war on his own people you just should sit back and watch either out of fear of repercussions or out of disinterest. It just makes the decision more complex. Pretending the only possible result is another dictatorship that's even worse is the easy way out. Everybody can paint a bleak picture of the future, making real changes is the difficult thing to do.

Watching this from Malta with apprehension. We're 220 miles away from the country, Catholic, and have traded with Gadaffi in the past. I'm sure when Libya has been 'liberated', the oil gone, and he's been replaced with an even more extreme Muslim nutcase we'll be on the end of some of their anger being the nearest EU country. Thanks for poking your noses in once again. Easy to poke the hornet's nest when you're a safe distance away. It's also getting very tiring to hear the 'he's killing civilians so we must remove him' excuse. There are umpteen countries (including 3 in the recent wave of uprisings) that are *still* killing civilians with UK/US knowledge yet nothing is done. Please don't insult our intelligence further with this fake reasoning.

[Bill Roy]

RobM, well I tell you what, we will remember in the future that you do not ever want us to help you if you ever find yourself in the same situation where your leader threatens to kill you all! And being half Jewish and half Catholic I have to say I do not give a Monkey's backside what religion either you or a country is, and I bet from experience neither do the service men and women who are putting their lives on the line at this very moment.

Yes I will agree that there are other countries where 'change' is occuring and civilians are being killed, indeed we in the west are trying to do something about it, but the difference is that the UN has mandated the action in Libya, and as Prince Hussain said this morning 'let us hope that other dictators learn by what is happening in Libya'.

For those who might be swayed by selective propaganda may I suggest a visit to ArabForum.com (DCG sorry about mentioning another forum but it has absolutely nothing to do with domaining I promise you). The cries for help from those literally on the front line are loud and clear, only idiots think that the newsbite words of a figure head should mean more than those of the people who are dying or could be killed because of a despotic dictator.

[Gee]

I think Gaddafi is exaggerating about number of civilians killed , he is psychopath and he knows how to deal with the situation psychologically very well

but I am extremely surprised by the decision of military interference in libya

this military action has no end unless you deploy ground troops

accordingly, I believe Gaddafi will win , america will most probably fail again like iraq and it will be a long term confrontation

[Gerry]

I think Gaddafi is exaggerating about number of civilians killed , he is psychopath and he knows how to deal with the situation psychologically very well

but I am extremely surprised by the decision of military interference in libya

this military action has no end unless you deploy ground troops

accordingly, I believe Gaddafi will win , america will most probably fail again like iraq and it will be a long term confrontation

Did you expect when they announced a no-fly join there would be just these imaginary lines in the sky?

Did the Arab nations want a no-fly zone but no enforcement? Because initially, that is precisely what was going on - a no fly zone with Libyan Fighter Jets flying and bombing their own people.

[Bill Roy]

Gee you are totally mistaken and have not taken in the 'whole' picture if I may say so.

1) The US is only initially 'leading' the Allied forces.
2) No Allied ground troop 'invasion' is planned, indeed it would be pointless if not totally counter-productive.
3) There is already many end-game scenarios that have been planned for by the Allies.
4) Many Arab states are already willing to help, some will even participate militarily against Gaddafi.
5) Gaddafi's mercenaries will already be questioning the profit of continuing to support him, and indeed whether their chances of them surviving to spend their blood money have changed significantly since yesterday (and those chances have deteriorated significantly).
6) Why do you think that Gaddafi has already ordered another 'cease-fire' (as if anyone thinks this is sincere).
7) Why has Gaddafi now said he wants to work through the OAU to settle this rather than the Arab League or UN.
8) Imagine Gaddafi without an effective air force, armour or artillery, then what chance does his forces stand against those rising up against him?


Gaddafi has lost, not because of the Allied air strikes but because the people of Libya will have a chance to make their own destiny.

In the meantime Gee check out the ArabForum on Arab.com, these are people willing to fight for their freedom and the freedom of their fellow countrymen, not run away like some and hide because things get dangerous in a protest. These men and women are literally dying for their freedom.


.........................

Update

More Allied air strikes and cruise missile strikes tonight.

Unconfirmed report puts the death toll on the rebels side at 8,000 (yes, that is eight thousand people) killed by Gaddafi forces so far. Kind of puts into perspective why the Allied action is taking place doesn't it.

[Infoproliferati]

Gaddafi should resign so everyone can go home. But he won't do that, not after 40 years of being in power. I have a feeling things are going to get really sour from here on.