Transportation Secretary wants to consider taxing motorists based on mileage

[Seraphim]

So in some time they will loose ther GIGANTIC income on taxing oil, fuel, with milage taxing, it doesnt matter what fuel you use...

Don't be so sure of that. We pay politicians solely to figure out clever ways to tax us, knowing all the while their role in our overall survival is minimal, if not outright parasitic. I suppose any given society can only accommodate for so many farmers, builders, cloth weavers, etc. Seems as though survival and DNA distribution in the upper social echelons is naturally left to deceit and trickery alone (i.e. lawyers, politicians, stock brokers, etc.). Everyone acknowledges and tolerates this on some level I think, with the trade off being our financial contribution towards these individuals and their offspring needs to produce a rare skill set that could hypothetically be used in some far fetched extreme survival situation, like bartering with a Himalayan milkmaid during a severe blizzard, or trying to raid the walnut stash of an overly aggressive chipmunk during a meteor shower.

[Gerry]

I still keep thinking about this one point;

Strange ideas, but then these are strange days.

We are so heavily taxed on every thing that this is now a time of creative taxation.

And lets keep in mind that taxation is another term for raising money.

No, I don't know what the answer is.

I have been one of those people who never minded paying my share of taxes if I knew what those taxes were for.

Today the issues are so cloudy and the coffers are empty from all the borrowing from one to the other.

It is simply mind boggling.

Not to mention a greater and heavier strain on what is left.

With all these job loses come the ceasing of paying the medical premiums adding more living souls to the uninsured.

And the fact to the matter is there is nothing left to borrow from.

[HarveyJ]

For all those people that think governments do absolutely nothing, I would like to know precisely how you intend to pay for roads, emergency services, etc on your own.
Whilst I think this is amazingly stupid on a number of levels, and should be shot down the moment it rears its ugly head for any number of reasons, a lot of people in this thread are massively over extending this stupidity and applying it to say that it's all stupid.

In the meantime, I'll say what I always say to people in regards to this:
Get your head out of your arse about the US being the greatest country in the world. It's clearly not anymore, if it ever was. Move somewhere else that you think is better, because you're clearly making your money in a manner that physical location doesn't matter so long as you have decent access speeds.

Welcome to socialism.

This isn't "socialism" in any sense. This is "surveillance society" stuff.
Get your terms right, or don't use them

Most of you probably know this but if you have a cell phone (Who doesn't?), most people can already be tracked.

Triangulated, not tracked. They can get which area you're in, but not a precise position, until you cross over between towers... unless you've got a GPS enabled phone, or are dumb enough to have some of those tracking software installs on your smart phone so your "friends" can see where you are.

[Gerry]

Hmm...triangulation.

That's how we used to pinpoint targets.

Most of you probably know this but if you have a cell phone (Who doesn't?), most people can already be tracked.

"Buddy Beacon" can tell exactly where you are.

It is supposed to be for your meet-ups but horrible to think what can be done with this knowledge.

[JMJ]

For all those people that think governments do absolutely nothing, I would like to know precisely how you intend to pay for roads, emergency services, etc on your own.
Whilst I think this is amazingly stupid on a number of levels, and should be shot down the moment it rears its ugly head for any number of reasons, a lot of people in this thread are massively over extending this stupidity and applying it to say that it's all stupid.

In the meantime, I'll say what I always say to people in regards to this:
Get your head out of your arse about the US being the greatest country in the world. It's clearly not anymore, if it ever was. Move somewhere else that you think is better, because you're clearly making your money in a manner that physical location doesn't matter so long as you have decent access speeds.



This isn't "socialism" in any sense. This is "surveillance society" stuff.
Get your terms right, or don't use them

Triangulated, not tracked. They can get which area you're in, but not a precise position, until you cross over between towers... unless you've got a GPS enabled phone, or are dumb enough to have some of those tracking software installs on your smart phone so your "friends" can see where you are.

Our roads are bought and paid for by gas taxes in my state and it is doing quite well in what they are doing. In fact with this new "stimulus" bill of Obama's they have us replacing a bridge that doesn't even need to be replaced. My state generally has billions stashed away for roads. Schools in all states are paid for via property taxes. Health via insurance, cash and some state and federal taxes. But there again my state has had it's own health care reform and has introduced a plan where pretty much anyone can get on a affordable health care plan. Police and courts are paid for via tickets, fines and court costs.Considering most of the laws on the books are ridiculous and the majority of our prisons are filled with non-violent offenders the prison/jail population could be reduced by a very large number. Putting someone in jail for months at a time or sometimes even years for a joint at $30,000 a year a head costs is stupid. Here in the US we have 5% of the worlds population and 25% of the worlds inmates. We have an additional 9.25 or so state sales tax which covers the remainder expense ie fire, administrative etc. Fishing licenses, boat registrations, hunting licenses, park fees etc for wildlife/parks. Water is paid for via water bills, electricity via electric bill. Honestly what else do we need here? I can't speak for other states but my state is making plenty of money to cover it's expenses. But what most people don;t know is that the states are paying a tax on the tax money collected to the Fed. So every dollar they generate in taxes only equals to around $.70 on the $1. All these a$$holes do is sit around and try to devise a new way to extract money out of someone's wallet so some other bureaucrat can get a job and sit around all day trying to figure out how they can extract more cash out of someone wallet. It's all completely out of control.

[Area52]

This isn't
Triangulated, not tracked. They can get which area you're in, but not a precise position, until you cross over between towers... unless you've got a GPS enabled phone, or are dumb enough to have some of those tracking software installs on your smart phone so your "friends" can see where you are.

The point is that if you use a cell phone, you can be located, whether by legal process or illegal. Most new cell phones sold in the US are GPS enabled which makes them trackable. This is supposed to be a good guy feature to enable law enforcement to locate a missing person, etc. Granted, I didn't specify, but triangulation is not what I was refering to, but since you brought it up you might want to check to see what can be done with modern triangulation technology.

[fab]

For all those people that think governments do absolutely nothing, I would like to know precisely how you intend to pay for roads, emergency services, etc on your own.

Harvey, I think everyone here realizes that government needs to collect taxes. There is already a gas tax. This is just a stupid way of collecting taxes.

[Gerry]

The point is that if you use a cell phone, you can be located, whether by legal process or illegal. Most new cell phones sold in the US are GPS enabled which makes them trackable. This is supposed to be a good guy feature to enable law enforcement to locate a missing person, etc. Granted, I didn't specify, but triangulation is not what I was refering to, but since you brought it up you might want to check to see what can be done with modern triangulation technology.

Not to mention that many of the vehicles on the road have Onstar.

And xm radio?

Hmm...

Harvey, I think everyone here realizes that government needs to collect taxes.

Very well put.

[HarveyJ]

Harvey, I think everyone here realizes that government needs to collect taxes. There is already a gas tax. This is just a stupid way of collecting taxes.

I agree. I said it was stupid too.
But from responses like JMJs, some people clearly don't.
Fact of the matter is that there has been 6 solid years of tax cuts. Now comes the claw back.

[JMJ]

But from responses like JMJs, some people clearly don't.

Do you understand how taxes came to be in the first place?

Here's a little history of US events I've put together which I'm still working on. Federal Government taxes are nothing but the Federal Reserve/IMF/World Bank pulling money back in for zero-sum and profits to it's shareholders.

The origination of it all as far as the US was the setting up of the Federal Reserve in 1913. The reason for it being setup was because the people of the US wanted the control of their money out of the hands of Wall Street Bankers. So it was given the name "Federal" and the bankers acted as if they didn't want it to happen all the while they were the owners and creators. The idea behind the Federal Reserve was to keep us from having these boom/bust cycles but ever since it's been nothing but boom/bust/bankruptcy. This is also the year the Income tax on companies was introduced.


In 1920 the Independent Treasury Act suspended the Treasury Department of the United States government. Our Congress turned the treasury department over to a private corporation.

In 1921 the Sheppard-Towner Maternity Act was passed which required all parents to register their child (Birth Certificate) as "wards" of the state. Despite what it's sold to be the reality is it's a Bond which is traded on the stock market. Don't believe me look up the RED numbers on a "original" copy. If you don't have one get one and see for yourself.

They over-inflated the economy pretty much based on the "value of people" and blew it up in 1929. (Much like whats being done now) The above act was allowed to "expire" in 1929 but ever since people have essentially volunteered their children into this slavery system.

It then took 4 years (1933) before the US was declared officially and completely bankrupt (owing at the time 100 million in gold) at which time Roosevelt seized all the gold via the Emergency Banking Act and signed over the land and people as collateral of the US to said bankers/corporation who bought and paid for everything with Paper money..

In 1935 Roosevelt passed the Federal Register Act which gave way for government agencies to impose taxes and make law (statutes to be precise).

In 1936 people themselves became earning trackable slaves to the system/corporation via their social security numbers.

In 1938 the Supreme court overturned Common Law (which is what the constitution is based on) via Erie Railroad Co V. Tompkins and gave way for a wide range of walking all over the people of the US from the Federal Government. Eventually leading to unconstitutional direct tax (income tax) on the people and our current "statute" legal system. Also this year FDR passed the Foreign Agents Registration Act which gave way for the agents of the IRS to collect taxes from the people of the US for a foreign entity. The personal income tax was established under the guise of needing it for WWII at the time is was said it would eventually be removed but it never was.

We have been under International Emergency Economic Powers Act since 1933 hence the Gold Fringed Flag in Federal buildings, courts, etc and in control of by international bankers via Paper money and electronic digit money. They just print money. The value of the dollar has decrease to the cost of production via inflation since then. It's completely worthless. And considering it was created as a debt instrument to begin with it's less than worthless. As in why we have an ever increasing national debt and future obligations of $66 trillion or so.

Skipping ahead a bit further JFK tried to end all of the above with Executive Order 11110 And we know the end result of that.

In 1965 President Johnson ended constitutional coinage and moved us to debased coinage.

In 1980 the Monetary Control Act gave the Federal Reserve control of all depository institutions


I'd be willing to bet if we took all of the totals from where this graph derived that it would amount to around about the entire 66 trillion in present and future obligations. Which would mean the US federal government has been living off of borrowed money since 1933. Not living off of our tax dollars.

[Area52]

Do you understand how taxes came to be in the first place?

Here's a little history of US events I've put together which I'm still working on. Federal Government taxes are nothing but the Federal Reserve/IMF/World Bank pulling money back in for zero-sum and profits to it's shareholders.

The origination of it all as far as the US was the setting up of the Federal Reserve in 1913. The reason for it being setup was because the people of the US wanted the control of their money out of the hands of Wall Street Bankers. So it was given the name "Federal" and the bankers acted as if they didn't want it to happen all the while they were the owners and creators. The idea behind the Federal Reserve was to keep us from having these boom/bust cycles but ever since it's been nothing but boom/bust/bankruptcy. This is also the year the Income tax on companies was introduced.


In 1920 the Independent Treasury Act suspended the Treasury Department of the United States government. Our Congress turned the treasury department over to a private corporation.

In 1921 the Sheppard-Towner Maternity Act was passed which required all parents to register their child (Birth Certificate) as "wards" of the state. Despite what it's sold to be the reality is it's a Bond which is traded on the stock market. Don't believe me look up the RED numbers on a "original" copy. If you don't have one get one and see for yourself.

They over-inflated the economy pretty much based on the "value of people" and blew it up in 1929. (Much like whats being done now) The above act was allowed to "expire" in 1929 but ever since people have essentially volunteered their children into this slavery system.

It then took 4 years (1933) before the US was declared officially and completely bankrupt (owing at the time 100 million in gold) at which time Roosevelt seized all the gold via the Emergency Banking Act and signed over the land and people as collateral of the US to said bankers/corporation who bought and paid for everything with Paper money..

In 1935 Roosevelt passed the Federal Register Act which gave way for government agencies to impose taxes and make law (statutes to be precise).

In 1936 people themselves became earning trackable slaves to the system/corporation via their social security numbers.

In 1938 the Supreme court overturned Common Law (which is what the constitution is based on) via Erie Railroad Co V. Tompkins and gave way for a wide range of walking all over the people of the US from the Federal Government. Eventually leading to unconstitutional direct tax (income tax) on the people and our current "statute" legal system. Also this year FDR passed the Foreign Agents Registration Act which gave way for the agents of the IRS to collect taxes from the people of the US for a foreign entity. The personal income tax was established under the guise of needing it for WWII at the time is was said it would eventually be removed but it never was.

We have been under International Emergency Economic Powers Act since 1933 hence the Gold Fringed Flag in Federal buildings, courts, etc and in control of by international bankers via Paper money and electronic digit money. They just print money. The value of the dollar has decrease to the cost of production via inflation since then. It's completely worthless. And considering it was created as a debt instrument to begin with it's less than worthless. As in why we have an ever increasing national debt and future obligations of $66 trillion or so.

Skipping ahead a bit further JFK tried to end all of the above with Executive Order 11110 And we know the end result of that.

In 1965 President Johnson ended constitutional coinage and moved us to debased coinage.

In 1980 the Monetary Control Act gave the Federal Reserve control of all depository institutions


I'd be willing to bet if we took all of the totals from where this graph derived that it would amount to around about the entire 66 trillion in present and future obligations. Which would mean the US federal government has been living off of borrowed money since 1933. Not living off of our tax dollars.

Regardless of acts by many past presidents that are considered to be illegal and unconstitutional, one could justifiably conclude from the quoted post and recent congressional actions that Congress is the US citizen's worst enemy. Obviously, our system of representation needs to be revised. Most of these people are either totally inept or corrupt, treating their position as a stepping stone to ever increasing power and wealth while passing mostly partisan, wasteful and useless laws. Thats if they even bother to participate or show up. All the while many naive citizens willingly cheer them on.

The most recent irresposible action of Congress (among many more), passing the most expensive spending bills in our country's history without reading it, is glaring proof of this point. The checks and balances of the administrative and judicial branches don't seem to be working as intended against the abuses of the legislative branch. Unfortunately, it looks like things will have to get much worse before US citizens get fed up and demand that change. I'm not talking about Obama's rhetorical ramblings.

For years, people around the world have wondered how German citizens could have allowed a destructive group such as the the nazi party to gain control of their country if they didn't support that regime's ideals, as they claimed. It was the ultimate con job, carried out by a group with a leader who said the right things to a country desperate for hope, in the middle of a depression. I can't help but think that we are getting glaring clues (if not warnings) right now, as to how such a thing could happen.

[JMJ]

"It is well known that there have always been those among us who wish to enlarge the powers of the general government; and experience would seem to indicate that there is a tendency on the part of this government to overstep the boundaries marked out for it by the Constitution. Its legitimate authority is abundantly sufficient for all the purposes for which it was created; and its powers being expressly enumerated, there can be no justification for claiming anything beyond them. Every attempt to exercise power beyond these limits should be promptly and firmly opposed. For one evil example will lead to other measures still more mischievous; and if the principle of constructive powers, or supposed advantages, or temporary circumstances, shall ever be permitted to justify the assumption of a power not given by the Constitution, the general government will before long absorb all the powers of legislation, and you will have, in effect, but one consolidated government. From the extent of our country, its diversified interests, different pursuits, and different habits, it is too obvious for argument that a single consolidated government would be wholly inadequate to watch over and protect its interests; and every friend of our free institutions should be always prepared to maintain unimpaired and in full vigor the rights and sovereignty of the states and to confine the action of the general government strictly to the sphere of its appropriate duties.

There is, perhaps, no one of the powers conferred on the federal government so liable to abuse as the taxing power. The most productive and convenient sources of revenue were necessarily given to it, that it might be able to perform the important duties imposed upon it; and the taxes which it lays upon commerce being concealed from the real payer in the price of the article, they do not so readily attract the attention of the people as smaller sums demanded from them directly by the tax gatherer. But the tax imposed on goods enhances by so much the price of the commodity to the consumer; and, as many of these duties are imposed on articles of necessity which are daily used by the great body of the people, the money raised by these imposts is drawn from their pockets.

Congress has no right, under the Constitution, to take money from the people unless it is required to execute some one of the specific powers entrusted to the government; and if they raise more than is necessary for such purposes, it is an abuse of the power of taxation and unjust and oppressive. It may, indeed, happen that the revenue will sometimes exceed the amount anticipated when the taxes were laid. When, however, this is ascertained, it is easy to reduce them; and, in such a case, it is unquestionably the duty of the government to reduce them, for no circumstances can justify it in assuming a power not given to it by the Constitution nor in taking away the money of the people when it is not needed for the legitimate wants of the government.

Plain as these principles appear to be, you will yet find that there is a constant effort to induce the general government to go beyond the limits of its taxing power and to impose unnecessary burdens upon the people. Many powerful interests are continually at work to procure heavy duties on commerce and to swell the revenue beyond the real necessities of the public service; and the country has already felt the injurious effects of their combined influence. They succeeded in obtaining a tariff of duties bearing most oppressively on the agricultural and laboring classes of society and producing a revenue that could not be usefully employed within the range of the powers conferred upon Congress; and, in order to fasten upon the people this unjust and unequal system of taxation, extravagant schemes of internal improvement were got up in various quarters to squander the money and to purchase support. Thus, one unconstitutional measure was intended to be upheld by another, and the abuse of the power of taxation was to be maintained by usurping the power of expending the money in internal improvements.

You cannot have forgotten the severe and doubtful struggle through which we passed when the Executive Department of the government, by its veto, endeavored to arrest this prodigal scheme of injustice and to bring back the legislation of Congress to the boundaries prescribed by the Constitution. The good sense and practical judgment of the people, when the subject was brought before them, sustained the course of the executive; and this plan of unconstitutional expenditure for the purpose of corrupt influence is, I trust, finally overthrown.

The result of this decision has been felt in the rapid extinguishment of the public debt and the large accumulation of a surplus in the treasury, notwithstanding the tariff was reduced and is now very far below the amount originally contemplated by its advocates. But, rely upon it, the design to collect an extravagant revenue and to burden you with taxes beyond the economical wants of the government is not yet abandoned. The various interests which have combined together to impose a heavy tariff and to produce an overflowing treasury are too strong and have too much at stake to surrender the contest. The corporations and wealthy individuals who are engaged in large manufacturing establishments desire a high tariff to increase their gains. Designing politicians will support it to conciliate their favor and to obtain the means of profuse expenditure for the purpose of purchasing influence in other quarters; and since the people have decided that the federal government cannot be permitted to employ its income in internal improvements, efforts will be made to seduce and mislead the citizens of the several states by holding out to them the deceitful prospect of benefits to be derived from a surplus revenue collected by the general government and annually divided among the states. And if, encouraged by these fallacious hopes, the states should disregard the principles of economy which ought to characterize every republican government and should indulge in lavish expenditures exceeding their resources, they will, before long, find themselves oppressed with debts which they are unable to pay, and the temptation will become irresistible to support high tariff in order to obtain a surplus for distribution.

Do not allow yourselves, my fellow citizens, to be misled on this subject. The federal government cannot collect a surplus for such purposes without violating the principles of the Constitution and assuming powers which have not been granted. It is, moreover, a system of injustice, and, if persisted in, will inevitably lead to corruption and must end in ruin. The surplus revenue will be drawn from the pockets of the people, from the farmer, the mechanic, and the laboring classes of society; but who will receive it when distributed among the states, where it is to be disposed of by leading state politicians who have friends to favor and political partisans to gratify? It will certainly not be returned to those who paid it and who have most need of it and are honestly entitled to it. There is but one safe rule, and that is to confine the general government rigidly within the sphere of its appropriate duties. It has no power to raise a revenue or impose taxes except for the purposes enumerated in the Constitution; and if its income is found to exceed these wants, it should be forthwith reduced, and the burdens of the people so far lightened.

In reviewing the conflicts which have taken place between different interests in the United States and the policy pursued since the adoption of our present form of government, we find nothing that has produced such deep-seated evil as the course of legislation in relation to the currency. The Constitution of the United States unquestionably intended to secure to the people a circulating medium of gold and silver. But the establishment of a national bank by Congress with the privilege of issuing paper money receivable in the payment of the public dues, and the unfortunate course of legislation in the several states upon the same subject, drove from general circulation the constitutional currency and substituted one of paper in its place.

It was not easy for men engaged in the ordinary pursuits of business, whose attention had not been particularly drawn to the subject, to foresee all the consequences of a currency exclusively of paper; and we ought not, on that account, to be surprised at the facility with which laws were obtained to carry into effect the paper system. Honest and even enlightened men are sometimes misled by the specious and plausible statements of the designing. But experience has now proved the mischiefs and dangers of a paper currency, and it rests with you to determine whether the proper remedy shall be applied.

The paper system being founded on public confidence and having of itself no intrinsic value, it is liable to great and sudden fluctuations, thereby rendering property insecure and the wages of labor unsteady and uncertain. The corporations which create the paper money cannot be relied upon to keep the circulating medium uniform in amount. In times of prosperity, when confidence is high, they are tempted by the prospect of gain or by the influence of those who hope to profit by it to extend their issues of paper beyond the bounds of discretion and the reasonable demands of business. And when these issues have been pushed on from day to day until the public confidence is at length shaken, then a reaction takes place, and they immediately withdraw the credits they have given; suddenly curtail their issues; and produce an unexpected and ruinous contraction of the circulating medium which is felt by the whole community.

The banks, by this means, save themselves, and the mischievous consequences of their imprudence or cupidity are visited upon the public. Nor does the evil stop here. These ebbs and flows in the currency and these indiscreet extensions of credit naturally engender a spirit of speculation injurious to the habits and character of the people. We have already seen its effects in the wild spirit of speculation in the public lands and various kinds of stock which, within the last year or two, seized upon such a multitude of our citizens and threatened to pervade all classes of society and to withdraw their attention from the sober pursuits of honest industry. It is not by encouraging this spirit that we shall best preserve public virtue and promote the true interests of our country.

But if your currency continues as exclusively paper as it now is, it will foster this eager desire to amass wealth without labor; it will multiply the number of dependents on bank accommodations and bank favors; the temptation to obtain money at any sacrifice will become stronger and stronger, and inevitably lead to corruption which will find its way into your public councils and destroy, at no distant day, the purity of your government. Some of the evils which arise from this system of paper press, with peculiar hardship, upon the class of society least able to bear it. A portion of this currency frequently becomes depreciated or worthless, and all of it is easily counterfeited in such a manner as to require peculiar skill and much experience to distinguish the counterfeit from the genuine note. These frauds are most generally perpetrated in the smaller notes, which are used in the daily transactions of ordinary business; and the losses occasioned by them are commonly thrown upon the laboring classes of society whose situation and pursuits put it out of their power to guard themselves from these impositions and whose daily wages are necessary for their subsistence.

It is the duty of every government so to regulate its currency as to protect this numerous class as far as practicable from the impositions of avarice and fraud. It is more especially the duty of the United States where the government is emphatically the government of the people, and where this respectable portion of our citizens are so proudly distinguished from the laboring classes of all other nations by their independent spirit, their love of liberty, their intelligence, and their high tone of moral character. Their industry in peace is the source of our wealth, and their bravery in war has covered us with glory; and the government of the United States will but ill discharge its duties if it leaves them a prey to such dishonest impositions. Yet it is evident that their interests cannot be effectually protected unless silver and gold are restored to circulation.

These views alone of the paper currency are sufficient to call for immediate reform; but there is another consideration which should still more strongly press it upon your attention.

Recent events have proved that the paper money system of this country may be used as an engine to undermine your free institutions; and that those who desire to engross all power in the hands of the few and to govern by corruption or force are aware of its power and prepared to employ it. Your banks now furnish your only circulating medium, and money is plenty or scarce according to the quantity of notes issued by them. While they have capitals not greatly disproportioned to each other, they are competitors in business, and no one of them can exercise dominion over the rest. And although, in the present state of the currency, these banks may and do operate injuriously upon the habits of business, the pecuniary concerns, and the moral tone of society, yet, from their number and dispersed situation, they cannot combine for the purpose of political influence; and whatever may be the dispositions of some of them their power of mischief must necessarily be confined to a narrow space and felt only in their immediate neighborhoods.

But when the charter of the Bank of the United States was obtained from Congress, it perfected the schemes of the paper system and gave its advocates the position they have struggled to obtain from the commencement of the federal government down to the present hour. The immense capital and peculiar privileges bestowed upon it enabled it to exercise despotic sway over the other banks in every part of the country. From its superior strength it could seriously injure, if not destroy, the business of any one of them which might incur its resentment; and it openly claimed for itself the power of regulating the currency throughout the United States. In other words, it asserted (and it undoubtedly possessed) the power to make money plenty or scarce, at its pleasure, at any time, and in any quarter of the Union, by controlling the issues of other banks and permitting an expansion or compelling a general contraction of the circulating medium according to its own will.

The other banking institutions were sensible of its strength, and they soon generally became its obedient instruments, ready at all times to execute its mandates; and with the banks necessarily went, also, that numerous class of persons in our commercial cities who depend altogether on bank credits for their solvency and means of business; and who are, therefore, obliged for their own safety to propitiate the favor of the money power by distinguished zeal and devotion in its service.

The result of the ill-advised legislation which established this great monopoly was to concentrate the whole money power of the Union, with its boundless means of corruption and its numerous dependents, under the direction and command of one acknowledged head; thus organizing this particular interest as one body and securing to it unity and concert of action throughout the United States and enabling it to bring forward, upon any occasion, its entire and undivided strength to support or defeat any measure of the government. In the hands of this formidable power, thus perfectly organized, was also placed unlimited dominion over the amount of the circulating medium, giving it the power to regulate the value of property and the fruits of labor in every quarter of the Union and to bestow prosperity or bring ruin upon any city or section of the country as might best comport with its own interest or policy.

We are not left to conjecture how the moneyed power, thus organized and with such a weapon in its hands, would be likely to use it. The distress and alarm which pervaded and agitated the whole country when the Bank of the United States waged war upon the people in order to compel them to submit to its demands cannot yet be forgotten. The ruthless and unsparing temper with which whole cities and communities were oppressed, individuals impoverished and ruined, and a scene of cheerful prosperity suddenly changed into one of gloom and despondency ought to be indelibly impressed on the memory of the people of the United States.

If such was its power in a time of peace, what would it not have been in a season of war with an enemy at your doors? No nation but the freemen of the United States could have come out victorious from such a contest; yet, if you had not conquered, the government would have passed from the hands of the many to the hands of the few; and this organized money power, from its secret conclave, would have directed the choice of your highest officers and compelled you to make peace or war as best suited their own wishes. The forms of your government might, for a time, have remained; but its living spirit would have departed from it.

The distress and sufferings inflicted on the people by the Bank are some of the fruits of that system of policy which is continually striving to enlarge the authority of the federal government beyond the limits fixed by the Constitution. The powers enumerated in that instrument do not confer on Congress the right to establish such a corporation as the Bank of the United States; and the evil consequences which followed may warn us of the danger of departing from the true rule of construction and of permitting temporary circumstances or the hope of better promoting the public welfare to influence, in any degree, our decisions upon the extent of the authority of the general government. Let us abide by the Constitution as it is written or amend it in the constitutional mode if it is found defective.

The severe lessons of experience will, I doubt not, be sufficient to prevent Congress from again chartering such a monopoly, even if the Constitution did not present an insuperable objection to it. But you must remember, my fellow citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty; and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your states as well as in the federal government. The power which the moneyed interest can exercise, when concentrated under a single head, and with our present system of currency, was sufficiently demonstrated in the struggle made by the Bank of the United States. Defeated in the general government, the same class of intriguers and politicians will now resort to the states and endeavor to obtain there the same organization which they failed to perpetuate in the Union; and with specious and deceitful plans of public advantages and state interests and state pride they will endeavor to establish, in the different states, one moneyed institution with overgrown capital and exclusive privileges sufficient to enable it to control the operations of the other banks.

Such an institution will be pregnant with the same evils produced by the Bank of the United States, although its sphere of action is more confined; and in the state in which it is chartered the money power will be able to embody its whole strength and to move together with undivided force to accomplish any object it may wish to attain. You have already had abundant evidence of its power to inflict injury upon the agricultural, mechanical, and laboring classes of society, and over whose engagements in trade or speculation render them dependent on bank facilities, the dominion of the state monopoly will be absolute, and their obedience unlimited. With such a bank and a paper currency, the money power would, in a few years, govern the state and control its measures; and if a sufficient number of states can be induced to create such establishments, the time will soon come when it will again take the field against the United States and succeed in perfecting and perpetuating its organization by a charter from Congress.

It is one of the serious evils of our present system of banking that it enables one class of society, and that by no means a numerous one, by its control over the currency to act injuriously upon the interests of all the others and to exercise more than its just proportion of influence in political affairs. The agricultural, the mechanical, and the laboring classes have little or no share in the direction of the great moneyed corporations; and from their habits and the nature of their pursuits, they are incapable of forming extensive combinations to act together with united force. Such concert of action may sometimes be produced in a single city or in a small district of country by means of personal communications with each other; but they have no regular or active correspondence with those who are engaged in similar pursuits in distant places. They have but little patronage to give the press and exercise but a small share of influence over it; they have no crowd of dependents about them who hope to grow rich without labor by their countenance and favor and who are, therefore, always ready to exercise their wishes.

The planter, the farmer, the mechanic, and the laborer all know that their success depends upon their own industry and economy and that they must not expect to become suddenly rich by the fruits of their toil. Yet these classes of society form the great body of the people of the United States; they are the bone and sinew of the country; men who love liberty and desire nothing but equal rights and equal laws and who, moreover, hold the great mass of our national wealth, although it is distributed in moderate amounts among the millions of freemen who possess it. But, with overwhelming numbers and wealth on their side, they are in constant danger of losing their fair influence in the government, and with difficulty maintain their just rights against the incessant efforts daily made to encroach upon them.

The mischief springs from the power which the moneyed interest derives from a paper currency which they are able to control; from the multitude of corporations with exclusive privileges which they have succeeded in obtaining in the different states and which are employed altogether for their benefit; and unless you become more watchful in your states and check this spirit of monopoly and thirst for exclusive privileges, you will, in the end, find that the most important powers of government have been given or bartered away, and the control over your dearest interests has passed into the hands of these corporations.

The paper money system and its natural associates, monopoly and exclusive privileges, have already struck their roots deep in the soil; and it will require all your efforts to check its further growth and to eradicate the evil. The men who profit by the abuses and desire to perpetuate them will continue to besiege the halls of legislation in the general government as well as in the states and will seek, by every artifice, to mislead and deceive the public servants. It is to yourselves that you must look for safety and the means of guarding and perpetuating your free institutions. In your hands is rightfully placed the sovereignty of the country and to you everyone placed in authority is ultimately responsible. It is always in your power to see that the wishes of the people are carried into faithful execution, and their will, when once made known, must sooner or later be obeyed. And while the people remain, as I trust they ever will, uncorrupted and incorruptible and continue watchful and jealous of their rights, the government is safe, and the cause of freedom will continue to triumph over all its enemies.

But it will require steady and persevering exertions on your part to rid yourselves of the iniquities and mischiefs of the paper system and to check the spirit of monopoly and other abuses which have sprung up with it and of which it is the main support. So many interests are united to resist all reform on this subject that you must not hope the conflict will be a short one nor success easy. My humble efforts have not been spared during my administration of the government to restore the constitutional currency of gold and silver; and something, I trust, has been done toward the accomplishment of this most desirable object. But enough yet remains to require all your energy and perseverance. The power, however, is in your hands, and the remedy must and will be applied if you determine upon it. " From Andrew Jackson's Farewell Address

http://www.britannica.com/presidents/article-9116892

[Gerry]

I would love to read some original thoughts and comments backed up and supported by facts.

Not to have an entire dissertation posted when a link would do.

How do you say it in the USA? Boring.

[HarveyJ]

Oh yes, that greedy government spending billions upon billions when it managed to get by on $23.86 back in 1913...

1) Inflation: You could buy an inner city 6 bedroom house for less than $1500 before the first World War... How much does that cost now? Right, work out that ratio, and then use it to see how much the Government spending is as a 1913 equivalent. Whilst it's certainly gone up to pay for nation building (see below), it's probably not actually gone up nearly as much as your little graph indicates.

2) Nation Building: Sorry, but how the hell do you expect roads, highways, national services, education, etc., to get built?
Are you going to put in money for a road you're not going to use? Why should those jerks in Kentucky get money for roads when you live in New York*? I mean, it's not like you'll ever go there...
Oh, what? You like Bourbon and corn and meat and other basic staples?
And you like people educated enough to run the businesses required to make that happen?
And you like trucks to bring them to you by road?
And you like cops to make sure people don't rob the trucks and kill the drivers before they get to you?
And you like an army to make sure the Chinese don't invade and take all the Bourbon for their evil Communist masters?
It's called nation building. If you don't like it, go to a tax haven country, where they have none of these things because they have no taxes, and see how you get by with an entirely user-pays system. It's the capitalists dream! In the meantime, STFU and continue paying your taxes because there's a whole heap of programs you benefit from, even if you don't know it and don't want to pay for it OR buy some guns, move to Waco, change your name to Koresh, and exercise you're 2nd amendment rights.

3) Money: It's intrinsically worthless, and merely started as a form of promissory (I.O.Us) notes, when people did not have enough silver or goods to pay for goods and services rendered. Those notes then got exchanged to other people, and thus "money" was born. The moment it moved to paper, backed by banks (which has been going on in Europe for over 500 years), it stopped having any "real" value, and was worth as much as any other contract, because that's effectively what it is.
Do you have any idea how amazingly complex the theory, let alone the structures to facilitate the flow, of money is? If it were so amazingly simple to move to a better system, if a better system existed, you can believe we'd actually be using it... But until resources become infinite, and labour costs become negligible, we will continue to use it because it is the only thing that has an agreed upon value. To say anything else is living in an absurd dreamland that forgets that people like to accumulate what others owe them to make larger purchases later, instead of hording material goods.

*I don't know, or care, where you live. I'm just using two geographically disparate states to make my point.

Doc Com: Has that for original thought?

[JMJ]

Oh yes, that greedy government spending billions upon billions when it managed to get by on $23.86 back in 1913...

1) Inflation: You could buy an inner city 6 bedroom house for less than $1500 before the first World War... How much does that cost now? Right, work out that ratio, and then use it to see how much the Government spending is as a 1913 equivalent. Whilst it's certainly gone up to pay for nation building (see below), it's probably not actually gone up nearly as much as your little graph indicates.

2) Nation Building: Sorry, but how the hell do you expect roads, highways, national services, education, etc., to get built?
Are you going to put in money for a road you're not going to use? Why should those jerks in Kentucky get money for roads when you live in New York*? I mean, it's not like you'll ever go there...
Oh, what? You like Bourbon and corn and meat and other basic staples?
And you like people educated enough to run the businesses required to make that happen?
And you like trucks to bring them to you by road?
And you like cops to make sure people don't rob the trucks and kill the drivers before they get to you?
And you like an army to make sure the Chinese don't invade and take all the Bourbon for their evil Communist masters?
It's called nation building. If you don't like it, go to a tax haven country, where they have none of these things because they have no taxes, and see how you get by with an entirely user-pays system. It's the capitalists dream! In the meantime, STFU and continue paying your taxes because there's a whole heap of programs you benefit from, even if you don't know it and don't want to pay for it OR buy some guns, move to Waco, change your name to Koresh, and exercise you're 2nd amendment rights.

3) Money: It's intrinsically worthless, and merely started as a form of promissory (I.O.Us) notes, when people did not have enough silver or goods to pay for goods and services rendered. Those notes then got exchanged to other people, and thus "money" was born. The moment it moved to paper, backed by banks (which has been going on in Europe for over 500 years), it stopped having any "real" value, and was worth as much as any other contract, because that's effectively what it is.
Do you have any idea how amazingly complex the theory, let alone the structures to facilitate the flow, of money is? If it were so amazingly simple to move to a better system, if a better system existed, you can believe we'd actually be using it... But until resources become infinite, and labour costs become negligible, we will continue to use it because it is the only thing that has an agreed upon value. To say anything else is living in an absurd dreamland that forgets that people like to accumulate what others owe them to make larger purchases later, instead of hording material goods.

*I don't know, or care, where you live. I'm just using two geographically disparate states to make my point.

Doc Com: Has that for original thought?

Paper and electronic money is a control mechanism. Nothing more nothing less. There is a better system but if it were used those that have all of the power now no longer have it. You keep living in this little dream world that the federal government does anything more than suck the lifeblood out of the people. I've already given you examples of how all of those roads, schools, police officers, etc are paid for. And it's done by the states. What the federal government wants to now do is take COMPLETE control of everything. The current bailout is the perfect example of that. Every single bit of it has strings attached which require the states to do this or that in order to use it.

[JMJ]

"With two-thirds of everyone's personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal debt and by Federal Government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services which taxpayers expect from their Government."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grace_Commission