World may not be warming, say scientist

[CureCancer]

The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7026317.ece

[H2FC]

The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7026317.ece

This story is nothing new. The skeptics have been claiming this ever since ExxonMobile began funding them years ago.

The last few paragraphs are what should be focused on...

Kevin Trenberth, a lead author of the chapter of the IPCC report that deals with the observed temperature changes, said he accepted there were problems with the global thermometer record but these had been accounted for in the final report.

“It’s not just temperature rises that tell us the world is warming,” he said. “We also have physical changes like the fact that sea levels have risen around five inches since 1972, the Arctic icecap has declined by 40% and snow cover in the northern hemisphere has declined.”

The European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts has recently issued a new set of global temperature readings covering the past 30 years, with thermometer readings augmented by satellite data.

Dr Vicky Pope, head of climate change advice at the Met Office, said: “This new set of data confirms the trend towards rising global temperatures and suggest that, if anything, the world is warming even more quickly than we had thought.”
Surface temperature records: policy driven deception? - a report by Joseph D’Aleo and Anthony Watts

[jasdon11]

This story is nothing new. The skeptics have been claiming this ever since ExxonMobile began funding them years ago.

Hey, you mean I can get paid for believing the truth? Nice.

The last few paragraphs are what should be focused on...

Kevin Trenberth, a lead author of the chapter of the IPCC report that deals with the observed temperature changes, said he accepted there were problems with the global thermometer record but these had been accounted for in the final report.

Then why won't they release the information surrounding the data they used when asked for through multiple Freedom Of Information requests? Anyone telling the truth who gets challenged, would surely want to prove themself right, no?

“It’s not just temperature rises that tell us the world is warming,” he said. “We also have physical changes like the fact that sea levels have risen around five inches since 1972, the Arctic icecap has declined by 40% and snow cover in the northern hemisphere has declined.”

"Five inches"? Can't your lot even agree on the basics? One guy says 'one inch', another says 'five inches' - not that it matters anyway as they're all just guesses based on corrupt data.

The European Centre for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts has recently issued a new set of global temperature readings covering the past 30 years, with thermometer readings augmented by satellite data.

Dr Vicky Pope, head of climate change advice at the Met Office, said: “This new set of data confirms the trend towards rising global temperatures and suggest that, if anything, the world is warming even more quickly than we had thought.”
Surface temperature records: policy driven deception? - a report by Joseph D’Aleo and Anthony Watts

Ah, The Met Office - responsible for the CRU where the Phil Jones emails originated describing how they manipulate figures and data to only support their desired result. Anyone who considers debating the mmgw issue without having seen those emails, is working blind.

[Gerry]

So, this summer when I am in a drought and my crops die and whither - I'm supposed to blame not having gotten enough snow this winter?

[jasdon11]

So, this summer when I am in a drought and my crops die and whither - I'm supposed to blame not having gotten enough snow this winter?

No - poor farming

Or El Nino?

Or nothing. Why the need for blame. The weather we get today isn't the same weather we'll have had 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, or probably even 100 years ago.

[Creature]

"Five inches"? Can't your lot even agree on the basics? One guy says 'one inch', another says 'five inches' - not that it matters anyway as they're all just guesses based on corrupt data.

Yawn: One of his most shocking discoveries was why the IPCC has been able to show sea levels rising by 2.3mm a year. Until 2003, even its own satellite-based evidence showed no upward trend. But suddenly the graph tilted upwards because the IPCC's favoured experts had drawn on the finding of a single tide-gauge in Hong Kong harbour showing a 2.3mm rise. The entire global sea-level projection was then adjusted upwards by a "corrective factor" of 2.3mm, because, as the IPCC scientists admitted, they "needed to show a trend".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/c...ever-told.html

Both sides debate (two parts): http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=Xdnzpr8zSU

[Gerry]

No - poor farming

Or El Nino?

Or nothing. Why the need for blame. The weather we get today isn't the same weather we'll have had 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago, or probably even 100 years ago.

That's the point...nothing is the same as it was a decade ago.

One thing we can agree on - if nothing is the same as it was a decade ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago, then something is to blame - or the cause.

Warming, cooling...the point is, the weather patterns are NOT what they used to be. The fact that we had 49 states with snow - well, we had a massive cold front of Artic air get carried in the jet stream and paired up with moisture coming out of the Gulf. Its that simple. That weather event (to me) does nothing to disprove global warming. It is a pattern and a stream.

One year I had drought conditions. Turned the crops under long before harvest.

Another year I had so much rain the crops were molding and fungus setting in before the plants could get established. They were literally rotting. Turned that crop over.

And yet another year, I had three hail storms in July - two in one day. Some hail stones were the size of my fist. So huge they dented my vehicles. Fortunately they started out that way but changed to quarter and pea size. Covered the ground in about 1-2 inches of hail. Shredded my crops and berry and grape vines to nothingness.

The patterns are changing and for the most part the seasons are changing as well.

Global warming? Global Cooling? Both? One caused by the other?

All I know is what I have experienced first hand.

And nothing is the way it was from year to year and season to season.

[jasdon11]

That's the point...nothing is the same as it was a decade ago.

One thing we can agree on - if nothing is the same as it was a decade ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago, then something is to blame - or the cause.

Warming, cooling...the point is, the weather patterns are NOT what they used to be. The fact that we had 49 states with snow - well, we had a massive cold front of Artic air get carried in the jet stream and paired up with moisture coming out of the Gulf. Its that simple. That weather event (to me) does nothing to disprove global warming. It is a pattern and a stream.

One year I had drought conditions. Turned the crops under long before harvest.

Another year I had so much rain the crops were molding and fungus setting in before the plants could get established. They were literally rotting. Turned that crop over.

And yet another year, I had three hail storms in July - two in one day. Some hail stones were the size of my fist. So huge they dented my vehicles. Fortunately they started out that way but changed to quarter and pea size. Covered the ground in about 1-2 inches of hail. Shredded my crops and berry and grape vines to nothingness.

The patterns are changing and for the most part the seasons are changing as well.

Global warming? Global Cooling? Both? One caused by the other?

All I know is what I have experienced first hand.

And nothing is the way it was from year to year and season to season.

This is the thing - who's to say what the weather should be and when. The planet doesn't use a calendar; doesn't know what a season is or when it should be; doesn't recognise a year or a month or a day. The weather and the climate are moving targets, and it's conceited at best to think that we do or can control it.

[Raider]

That's the point...nothing is the same as it was a decade ago.

One thing we can agree on - if nothing is the same as it was a decade ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago, then something is to blame - or the cause.

Warming, cooling...the point is, the weather patterns are NOT what they used to be. The fact that we had 49 states with snow - well, we had a massive cold front of Artic air get carried in the jet stream and paired up with moisture coming out of the Gulf. Its that simple. That weather event (to me) does nothing to disprove global warming. It is a pattern and a stream.

One year I had drought conditions. Turned the crops under long before harvest.

Another year I had so much rain the crops were molding and fungus setting in before the plants could get established. They were literally rotting. Turned that crop over.

And yet another year, I had three hail storms in July - two in one day. Some hail stones were the size of my fist. So huge they dented my vehicles. Fortunately they started out that way but changed to quarter and pea size. Covered the ground in about 1-2 inches of hail. Shredded my crops and berry and grape vines to nothingness.

The patterns are changing and for the most part the seasons are changing as well.

Global warming? Global Cooling? Both? One caused by the other?

All I know is what I have experienced first hand.

And nothing is the way it was from year to year and season to season.

Yes, Weather changes, I believe we have nearly 115 years of recorded weather data that shows its been changing, All the way back before the industrial revolution, Nobody here is denying these changes, the question is; "Is Man causing it?"

Aside from you posting a whole lot of insinuations on this subject, It would be refreshing to see you post one shred of evidence that supports Man is the cause for these changing patterns. That shouldn't be too hard for you, now should it?

[Gerry]

This is the thing - who's to say what the weather should be and when. The planet doesn't use a calendar; doesn't know what a season is or when it should be; doesn't recognise a year or a month or a day. The weather and the climate are moving targets, and it's conceited at best to think that we do or can control it.

No one (at least me) is talking about controlling it.

I am not sure how old you are but, in my case, I can speak for a specific area and what I have witnessed in a few decades for that specific area.

And people who grow and harvest crops have a pretty good sense as to those changes we have witnessed over the years/decades.

It is not a matter of the planet using a calendar or "knowing" what a season is.

It is a matter of being aware of the changes in a specific environment and a changing of the growing seasons.

People have no idea how changes in growing seasons across the globe can have a devastating and dramatic effects on crops.

Wish I had time to explain all of this but it would not matter to those that already have a pre-conceived notion as to what is going on.

I am neither blaming or discounting global warming - but I know what changes have gone on over the years.

That first hand knowledge I can not discount.

---------- Post added at 04:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 PM ----------

@ raider, was there a specific question in this thread "is man causing it?"

No.

Insinuations?

That's a mighty big word.

Do you know what it means?

Just crawl back under your pond scum with your other teagagging teabagging slime.

[ksinclair]

The United Nations climate panel faces a new challenge with scientists casting doubt on its claim that global temperatures are rising inexorably because of human pollution.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7026317.ece

That is not what he said. Why do people represent things so out of context?

He said a lot of things and you have to pay attention to details.

[Gerry]

That is not what he said. Why do people represent things so out of context?

He said a lot of things and you have to pay attention to details.

I agree. The piece questions whether the data collected is reliable due to changes in that particular locale of the station collecting data.

If the was once located in an urban open area but since is surrounded by heat generating equipment due to urban sprawl or construction, then the data would be affected. Same goes for if the station is nearly cooling facilities.

A couple of specific examples mentioned was:

Watts has also found examples overseas, such as the weather station at Rome airport, which catches the hot exhaust fumes emitted by taxiing jets.

In Britain, a weather station at Manchester airport was built when the surrounding land was mainly fields but is now surrounded by heat-generating buildings.

Changes to the environment of the station itself can no longer being considered reliable data therefore the data collected can not be considered reliable. Seems to be saying the process of data collecting stations itself is no longer reliable.

I like the core samples from the Poles to relate what has gone on and what "may" be happening.

[Fearless]

Did the cows stop farting?

[Gerry]

Did the cows stop farting?

Nope, methane gas.

Need to put Beano in their feed along with all the growth hormones.

[jasdon11]

No one (at least me) is talking about controlling it.

I am not sure how old you are but, in my case, I can speak for a specific area and what I have witnessed in a few decades for that specific area.

And people who grow and harvest crops have a pretty good sense as to those changes we have witnessed over the years/decades.

It is not a matter of the planet using a calendar or "knowing" what a season is.

It is a matter of being aware of the changes in a specific environment and a changing of the growing seasons.

People have no idea how changes in growing seasons across the globe can have a devastating and dramatic effects on crops.

Wish I had time to explain all of this but it would not matter to those that already have a pre-conceived notion as to what is going on.

I am neither blaming or discounting global warming - but I know what changes have gone on over the years.

That first hand knowledge I can not discount.

I'm 41 - you're a bit older; not much. Any changes you've witnessed will likely be consistent with changes witnessed by those a generation or two before ours - likewise a generation or two before that, and so on. Nothing new; nothing to get excited about.

[Gerry]

Nothing new; nothing to get excited about.

When it comes to crops, there is cause for concern.

I do not farm on a grand scale and my livelihood does not depend on it.

But to use one example of my own -

most blueberry plants require X = number of chill hours. In other words, in a chilled dormant state in order to be vigorous.

A particular variety that I have grown for nearly 15 years now does not get the required chill time per season to be productive.

It is not a matter of being old stock that no longer produces because new plantings of the same variety and pruning have proven this to be a good producer over the years. Even the new plantings that may be 3 or 4 years old are no longer productive.

Therefore, they are of no benefit to me any more and I now have to replace them with another variety - one that requires less chill time and most likely a hybrid that has not really been a proven producer in this area.

I have actually been looking in a wholesalers catalog I get in the mail at blueberry varieties (as well as a couple more varieties of raspberry/blackberry) to extend the growing season.

I am surrounded by farmers and growers who measure their crops not so much as in acreage but in square miles.

Many are apple, peach, and pear growers. Again, these plants do require a dormant season.

Problem is, many are now blooming and budding way too early and the crop is being wiped out by a freeze or frost.

When they go through a cold spell and then the weather starts to really warm up, they believe it is time to start producing buds and blooms.

There are notable and large growers of Apples that supply the entire country with Virginia Apples - Mutsu, Granny Smith, Fuji, Yellow Delicious, Roma, Gala, Johnagold, and about 20 other varieties of apples.

One or two seasons spread out in sporadic years is not too great of a concern. But year after year is cause for concern, especially for early season bloomers. It is very difficult to find Mutsu sometimes on the east coast.

The same happens to my Walnut Trees. Folks will tell you the best Walnuts in the world are Black Walnuts and mine are outstanding! Huge flavor, sweet, and delicious. I have trees from 25 years old to nearly 200 years old still producing - and that is not an exaggeration! They start flowering in late April/Early May. A late frost/freeze in early May can wipe out an entire year's crop. My crops now come about every three years. Still able to load up several truck loads. But not near as much or as often.

That is what I am referring to as crops being decimated by the weather and seasons.

It is as if the chart that you would commonly see as "growing zones" or recommended zones to plant is actually changing.

As for the generations before ours, those so called "old timers" are still around and can offer even further insight to what has gone on and what has changed.

I help some of them when it is time to harvest and turn the fields, and so on. They are invaluable for their advice and instructions. They have helped me out immeasurably.

[Raider]

@ raider, was there a specific question in this thread "is man causing it?"

No.

Insinuations?

That's a mighty big word.

Do you know what it means?

Just crawl back under your pond scum with your other teagagging teabagging slime.

Oh, I know what it means alright.... You posts are full of them;

One thing we can agree on - if nothing is the same as it was a decade ago, 25 years ago, 100 years ago, then something is to blame - or the cause.

So what are you suggesting here Doc? Why dont you tell us what you think is to blame for the changes instead of throwing out crap like this that keeps the reader guessing?

I must say your BS generator has churned out plenty in this thread, and yet you haven't told us anything we dont already know, But you sure do sound like you know what your talking about, and that's what's important right?.

And what do you have against the Tea party? Most are independents are they not? You claimed you were a independent at one time remember?, Now it seems even that was a LIE.... No need to tell us what you are Doc, we already know; A Douchebagging Dumbocrat.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------

I like the core samples from the Poles to relate what has gone on and what "may" be happening.

What core samples in particular are you referencing here?

[Arrogance]

Nope, methane gas.

Need to put Beano in their feed along with all the growth hormones.

lol

Termites also causing problems http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...s-1394135.html

[Gerry]

As is her usual evaesque manner, jump in a thread, not knowing what the thread is about, bash me or someone else, and once more stick your foot in your own mouth (or perhaps ass...I can not tell the difference anymore).

There is no low and there is no high to measure your stupidity and lameness.

No, no, no...once more, tell us, once more, in this particular thread where the question was mentioned is the question is; "Is Man causing it?" as you put it?

Who is insinuating what here?

You must have read that somewhere in the thread or the article quoted so tell us where it is?

Because I see a thread entitled World may not be warming, say scientist and that is the title of the article referenced.

Ohh...I see. You made that up and interjected it here into this thread.

Thank goodness you made that question up and put it in the thread and it had nothing to do with the original title or article. I thought, Whoa...did I miss something in the article???

Because to me, and I think a few others, it appeared to focus of the article was on whether or not the stationary collecting stations as being a reliable source of information when the locale that they are in have undergone great changes themselves.

I am not sure how you can possibly misconstrue I am neither blaming or discounting global warming as a for or against global warming theorists.

Your ability to stoop to new lows in attempts to discredit me and other members does not surprise me at all.

But, again, you never even read the post or the article referenced. Just another one of your pathetic and pitiful and shallow and hollow attempts at discrediting a member while all you managed to accomplish is once again making yourself look like an ass.

So, please tell me and all of us...where was that question raised in the article?

At what point did you feel compelled to enter the thread and ask that question?

And how did that contribute to the thread or the original article?

[jasdon11]

When it comes to crops, there is cause for concern.

I do not farm on a grand scale and my livelihood does not depend on it.

But to use one example of my own -

most blueberry plants require X = number of chill hours. In other words, in a chilled dormant state in order to be vigorous.

A particular variety that I have grown for nearly 15 years now does not get the required chill time per season to be productive.

It is not a matter of being old stock that no longer produces because new plantings of the same variety and pruning have proven this to be a good producer over the years. Even the new plantings that may be 3 or 4 years old are no longer productive.

Therefore, they are of no benefit to me any more and I now have to replace them with another variety - one that requires less chill time and most likely a hybrid that has not really been a proven producer in this area.

I have actually been looking in a wholesalers catalog I get in the mail at blueberry varieties (as well as a couple more varieties of raspberry/blackberry) to extend the growing season.

I am surrounded by farmers and growers who measure their crops not so much as in acreage but in square miles.

Many are apple, peach, and pear growers. Again, these plants do require a dormant season.

Problem is, many are now blooming and budding way too early and the crop is being wiped out by a freeze or frost.

When they go through a cold spell and then the weather starts to really warm up, they believe it is time to start producing buds and blooms.

There are notable and large growers of Apples that supply the entire country with Virginia Apples - Mutsu, Granny Smith, Fuji, Yellow Delicious, Roma, Gala, Johnagold, and about 20 other varieties of apples.

One or two seasons spread out in sporadic years is not too great of a concern. But year after year is cause for concern, especially for early season bloomers. It is very difficult to find Mutsu sometimes on the east coast.

The same happens to my Walnut Trees. Folks will tell you the best Walnuts in the world are Black Walnuts and mine are outstanding! Huge flavor, sweet, and delicious. I have trees from 25 years old to nearly 200 years old still producing - and that is not an exaggeration! They start flowering in late April/Early May. A late frost/freeze in early May can wipe out an entire year's crop. My crops now come about every three years. Still able to load up several truck loads. But not near as much or as often.

That is what I am referring to as crops being decimated by the weather and seasons.

It is as if the chart that you would commonly see as "growing zones" or recommended zones to plant is actually changing.

As for the generations before ours, those so called "old timers" are still around and can offer even further insight to what has gone on and what has changed.

I help some of them when it is time to harvest and turn the fields, and so on. They are invaluable for their advice and instructions. They have helped me out immeasurably.

H2FC and Tas take note from the above; this is how you add to the debate, with reasoning and quantifiable evidence drawn from your own experiences. Not with the emotional ranting and repeating of sound-bites that you've picked up from whichever media you choose to agree with.

Doc Com - I note you're not directly atributing your crop/weather problems to mmgw or anything else - just stating the facts that you can see for yourself. A few years ago in the UK we had a similar problem with a wetter than normal summer. Farmers struggled to harvest their crops because the ground was too soft to take their machinery. Many crops were left to rot over the winter in the ground. You can imagine the media speculation over mmgw and the sky falling...well it wasn't a global issue, just a localised one, and it didn't last.

But then weather isn't a constant - it sometimes fits our expectations, sometimes doesn't. Sounds like your issues are due to more than just a fraction of a degree here and there throughout the year (which is what mmgw theorists are claiming on a global level) which would suggest an atypical localised weather pattern.

I guess that if you cut down one of those 200 yo walnut trees (God forbid - though the roots might make a nice gun stock!), analysis of the rings would show that similar patterns have occured in the past - mere speculation on my part, but I'd put a dollar on it.