Advice Please..

**Beachie** · 07-03-2005, 08:38 AM

Hi,

This has been discussed previously, but I would appreciate some advice.

Some time ago I agreed on a deal to sell ten domains to a person in Greece for $4000. I agreed to push five of the domains to him, for an upfront payment of $1500, with the remainder to be paid within ten days. This was documented. He never made the second payment, and walked away with the best five domains for less than half the agreed amount. Unfortunately, the registrar (Moniker) were unable to assist as they believe the matter must be resolved legally. Personally, I believe that a stolen domain is a stolen domain, but that's another story.

About a year has passed since this all took place, but I don't let anyone get away, and I wouldn't like to see anyone else get scammed by this guy. I'm sure he thinks he's a criminal genius and he's walked away laughing, but I'm just biding my time..

Hypothetically, if you were in my position, would you:

a) Proceed with civil legal action (bearing in mind that he is in Greece).
b) Proceed with a domain dispute resolution (although, as far as I'm aware, UDRP/WIPO isn't designed to resolve this type of issue)
c) Proceed with 'alternative methods', if you know what I mean..

**mark** · 07-03-2005, 08:52 AM

is the person you sold the domains to a member of this forum?

**Beachie** · 07-03-2005, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by mark

is the person you sold the domains to a member of this forum?

Not now - he was banned at all three forums because of this.

**Blarian** · 07-03-2005, 08:58 AM

Is your goal to get your domains back? or are you more concerned with getting the money back from him?

Seems like the amount might be too little to be worth the spent money to take legal action, unless you just want the domains back.

What are his old usernames on the forums?

**Beachie** · 07-03-2005, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Blarian

Is your goal to get your domains back? or are you more concerned with getting the money back from him?

I'd like to get the domains back. Second prize is to have his balls cut off.

He changed his username a few times, but it was IDN and interdot. He goes by the name of Antypas (Antippas) Matthias, Antypas Gerasimos or 'Mike'. Also uses 'beatlesrare' on eBay. He also claims to be the original owner of cinema.com and yes.com.

**DaddyHalbucks** · 07-03-2005, 09:20 AM

That sucks!

UDRP is out; it is only for egregious trademark violations, not civil disputes.

International legal actions are tough. Just getting proper service is a challenge.

Alot depends on the value of the claim/ the domains. An international lawsuit could be costly.

One inexpensive thing you may want to do is to put up a few pages with the names on them and information about the alleged stolen status, for the search engines to spider. If the guy is re-selling the names, a new buyer might Google the domains before buying them.

**jberryhill** · 07-03-2005, 10:03 AM

I believe that a stolen domain is a stolen domain, but that's another story.

The problem is that what you have here are some "partially paid for" domains. I know it is of little comfort, but that's why it's a good idea to have a third party hold the domains until the payment terms have been performed.

If, say, Moniker were to move those five domains back to you, then the question is what do you do with the $1500 you were paid.

One sentiment with which I certainly sympathize is, even as an attorney, it often seems like a more efficient solution to be able to just track someone down and knock them over the head with a stick. For example, I'm defending a party in a lawsuit naming multiple defendants in which the Plaintiff's claim is absolutely frivolous. Instead of having three teams of lawyers fell uncounted trees for wasted paper, it would be so much easier to administer a spanking.

**mark** · 07-03-2005, 10:52 AM

john: maybe he could file a civil suit in australia asking for the domain return in a jp court type setting and obtain service by publication if these type of courts/service exist in australia? if successful, then domesticate the judgment in the united states where moniker is located and send a copy of the court order to moniker to allow them to return the names, as per the court order? just a thought....

**namestrands** · 07-03-2005, 11:08 AM

hmm sounds like you need some vigilante domainers...

we could form a secret society

Send me what you have on this guy and lets see what we can turn up together..

**dodo1** · 07-03-2005, 11:47 AM

Wow, that's a tough case. It will be hard and costly to take international
legal actions. And Moniker cannot just transfer the domains back to you,
because you have already received $1,500 from the buyer. I would also
take use of "alternative methods", as you call it, in order to protect others
from buying these stolen domains. DaddyHalbucks' idea of getting some
information about your case spidered in Google is a good first step to take.
However, this will not bring you the domains back. So I would really get
in contact with your lawyer. It seems like this case must be resolved by
taking legal actions. I cannot think of another possibility, although it will
be expensive to sue the buyer for your domains. And the next time you
do business with somebody you don't know use a third party service to do
the exchange of funds and the transfer of the domain name. That's often
the best way to guard against cases like this.

**mark** · 07-03-2005, 01:34 PM

the $1500 could possibly pose a problem unless beachie gave moniker the $1500 to return to the buyer (who doesn't deserve a penny of it back, needless to say) but he did indicate to blarian that the domains were more important than the money. this might make it easier for moniker to accept beachie's position and might even be the solution without the necessity of having to file any kind of legal action.

**jdk** · 07-03-2005, 02:54 PM

I'd take the $1500 and buy a ticket to Greece (if you know what I mean).

**Beachie** · 07-03-2005, 07:21 PM

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone.

Originally Posted by mark

john: maybe he could file a civil suit in australia asking for the domain return in a jp court type setting and obtain service by publication if these type of courts/service exist in australia? if successful, then domesticate the judgment in the united states where moniker is located and send a copy of the court order to moniker to allow them to return the names, as per the court order? just a thought....

I'd be interested in persuing something like this. Does anyone know if this is possible? I have a very good lawyer here in Oz, who is extremely IT literate.

Although, the temptation to buy a ticket to Greece is high.

Originally Posted by jberryhill

..spanking.

John, I just emailed you regarding mark's suggestion.

Chris

**MonikerMan** · 07-05-2005, 12:26 PM

Hey John,

Do you think Steve Sturgeon's VA presence could work here where the registry would have the authority to transfer the domains based on a legal outcome so it would not be an international case?

We would love to help Beachie here but as you all know, we cannot just play judge or jury on this one given there are two different versions of this story.

**jberryhill** · 07-05-2005, 02:34 PM

These stories always involve something to the effect of "Some time ago I agreed on a deal" without a whole lot of explanation of whether it was a written deal, an exchange of emails or messages from A to B, etc., which facts can bear on the location(s) at which a suit might appropriately be brought.

Further, it's not clear to me whether the names (a) were initially at Moniker and/or (b) are still at Moniker, in which case depending on the nature of the communications forming the "deal" in paragraph 1, might or might not indicate that Florida would be a fine place to bring an action. Nobody had a "deal" with the registry, which only controls what registrar is responsible for the domain.

But the initial concerns in paragraph 1 might indicate that Australia is a perfectly fine place to bring an action with sufficient jurisdiction over the "deal" to be accepted as a "court of competent jurisdiction" for the purpose of the registrar deciding what to do.

If I wanted email on discussion threads in the forums, I'd be sure to ask for it, but I receive such a tremendous volume of both email and spam that matching up a username in a forum with a discussion thread and whatever email address is sending to me, and still not having the operative facts for a situation that is going to cost me time to sort out.... that if I don't have or feel led to say something pithy in a forum thread, then its a good bet that email to me is not going to improve matters.

**Acro** · 07-05-2005, 03:16 PM

Just contact Tassos, he's 6ft 5 and built like a Hummer :-D

**Beachie** · 07-05-2005, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by jberryhill

These stories always involve something to the effect of "Some time ago I agreed on a deal" without a whole lot of explanation of whether it was a written deal, an exchange of emails or messages from A to B, etc., which facts can bear on the location(s) at which a suit might appropriately be brought.

Further, it's not clear to me whether the names (a) were initially at Moniker and/or (b) are still at Moniker, in which case depending on the nature of the communications forming the "deal" in paragraph 1, might or might not indicate that Florida would be a fine place to bring an action. Nobody had a "deal" with the registry, which only controls what registrar is responsible for the domain.

But the initial concerns in paragraph 1 might indicate that Australia is a perfectly fine place to bring an action with sufficient jurisdiction over the "deal" to be accepted as a "court of competent jurisdiction" for the purpose of the registrar deciding what to do.

If I wanted email on discussion threads in the forums, I'd be sure to ask for it, but I receive such a tremendous volume of both email and spam that matching up a username in a forum with a discussion thread and whatever email address is sending to me, and still not having the operative facts for a situation that is going to cost me time to sort out.... that if I don't have or feel led to say something pithy in a forum thread, then its a good bet that email to me is not going to improve matters.

Hi John,

Thankyou for your comments. In my email I did indicate that I was willing to pay you for your time, and I asked your rate.

The "deal" was done via email. He states quite clearly in the emails that the deal is for ten domains at $4000, and he promises to pay the full amount within four days. When I questioned the fact that he could walk away with the domains he further promised that the full payment would be sent.

The domains were initially at Moniker - they did not change registrar.

**jberryhill** · 07-05-2005, 10:30 PM

I would rather not take an engagement in a matter upon which I have commented in a forum, so chalk up rule, uh, I'm up to about 174 - if I've commented on something in a forum, then it's a good indication I'm not available.

If you have a good relationship with your Australian lawyer, in the absence of any reason indicating that the buyer was not knowingly dealing with a party in Australia, then an appropriate order against the buyer and all parties acting in concert therewith from an Australian court should be sufficient. That said, I have not read Moniker's registration agreement in detail.

**izopod** · 07-05-2005, 11:32 PM

good luck in getting your domains back! I hate cheats and scammers!!!

**Dale Hubbard** · 07-06-2005, 02:39 AM

Are these domains currently live? If so I'd be mounting a huge and anonymous DDOS attack right now. By the time you've been through legal process, you'll be well out of pocket. As John points out, your problem as I see it is that you've been paid some of the money, but the argument is essentially what that money was for. Was it explicitly full and final payment for some of them, or could it be construed as a partial payment for all of them? Good luck!