Americans stealing .EUropean virtual properties?

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

To the original poster and some of the people screaming "fraud" - There is absolutely nothing wrong with forming corporations in Europe, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with filing trademark applications in Benelux.

That much is obvious, but I believe there is something very wrong in applying for over 100 bogus simultaneous TM's applications on November 21, 2005, only so you can claim the corresponding domains in Sunrise period starting December 7, 2005. The key issue here is actually not the technically legal approach of bogus European-based presence, but the bogus TM applications/registrations with which they seem to be getting away in respect to Eurid rules.

They certainly have not been granted any of these applications for sure (nobody has yet) as far as I understand it, but they have been granted "valid acceptance" (by Eurid) with many of their applications and are well on the way to actually get many of them in less than two months time. Of course, the moment they get all these names in reality is the moment they will transfer the ownership to another one of their bogus European-based shell subsidiaries and with that will cover their tracks for good. The time is running out for these "loophole exploiters" to be stopped.

http://img460.imageshack.us/img460/7797/hotels9wj.jpg

http://img478.imageshack.us/img478/...urniture3kv.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/8433/ask0jr.jpg

http://img472.imageshack.us/img472/7317/diets3vh.jpg

...

Of course they aren't the only one, there are plenty of other U.S. based entities using European-based proxies to get some of these .EU names. The world''s favorite domain speculator's registrar based in Pacific Northwest is also using German bases company called "MINERVA Gmbh Consulting" (serach for this name here http://register.bmb-bbm.org/bmbonlin...d/applicant.do which has 249 "Benelux" TM applications, many of them pointing at their U.S. based partners. For example they applied for "Hotels.eu" (as well as many others) on behalf on someone based in Washington state using: trademarks@name-services.com as a contact email, but then again that's not too surprising since Minerva's official website is http://www.enom.de/start_uk.htm

[jberryhill]

I believe there is something very wrong

You are entitled to your belief. The rules, on the other hand, are the rules.

Personally, I believe there is a lot wrong with the way the rules were set up, because these exercises in trying to make sunrise periods "fair" are doomed to fail in any event. Idiotic systems like this simply invite exploitation, and I do not understand the shock at the rules having been exploited. That's what rules are for.

I believe it is absolutely wonderful that people have lined up to make a mockery of the .eu sunrise rules, thus demonstrating again the stupidity of having such rules in the first place.

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Personally, I believe there is a lot wrong with the way the rules were set up.

You are entitled to your belief. The rules, on the other hand, are setup in order to be obeyed and followed, not circumvented and exploited on some "sophisticated kindergarden level" technicalities.

Originally Posted by jberryhill

I believe it is absolutely wonderful that people have lined up to make a mockery of the .eu sunrise rules, thus demonstrating again the stupidity of having such rules in the first place.

I believe that it is absolutely wonderful that EURID have at least attempted to do something to try and prevent Yun Yes', Frank Schillings' and Michael Mans' of this world from scooping up all the relevant EU domain space by registering hundreds of thousand of names in the first week of "open enrollment". Having said that I have no doubt that they will NOT prevent them from doing so in various ways anyway.

Oh well...

[jberryhill]

The rules, on the other hand, are setup in order to be obeyed and followed

They were.

And if you bother to look, not a single one of the parties you mentioned has the slightest interest in .eu names.

You are suffering from the delusion that affected a lot of people during the ICANN WG-B discussions several years ago, and during the entirely pointless WLS debate - i.e. there is some definition of "fair" which confers a greater likelihood that I will get what I want, while preventing "bad" people from getting what they want.

The point of the sunrise period was to keep nasty evil cybersquatters from getting names to which TM owners believe they are entitled. The thing is that not all of the TM owners had everything that some of the TM owners were pushing as a requirement to qualify for a domain name. So the requirements were relaxed and the Benelux TM office intentionally kicked into high gear for the sole purpose of accomodating people who wanted to follow the rules.

The rules were not "circumvented", dude, the rules were followed. Setting up a legal entity in Europe is not some "technicality". Something like 75% of NYSE-listed corporations are chartered in Delaware, which aside from being my place of residence, is a place where a $100 bill makes you every bit as much a legal corporation as Exxon.

Any system of rules - any system - defines a course of conduct for obtaining a desired result. Rules promulgated by nitwits even more so.

[denny007]

God bless the speculators who took interest in the .eu extension. There should be no "TM holders grant" though, there should be first round auction - who pays most gets it. And possible TM complaints should be done after that in i.e. WIPO-panel style. But what else to expect from the EU bureaucrats...

[mark]

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive"

[sasquatch]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

And if you bother to look, not a single one of the parties you mentioned has the slightest interest in .eu names.

Why be vague?

Originally Posted by jberryhill

You are suffering from the delusion that affected a lot of people during the ICANN WG-B discussions several years ago, and during the entirely pointless WLS debate - i.e. there is some definition of "fair" which confers a greater likelihood that I will get what I want, while preventing "bad" people from getting what they want.

The point of the sunrise period was to keep nasty evil cybersquatters from getting names to which TM owners believe they are entitled. The thing is that not all of the TM owners had everything that some of the TM owners were pushing as a requirement to qualify for a domain name. So the requirements were relaxed and the Benelux TM office intentionally kicked into high gear for the sole purpose of accomodating people who wanted to follow the rules.

Are you saying that Benelux TM office lately exists only so that some "overseas phantoms" can apply for bogus trademarks irrelavant to their stated TM claims under that juristiction?

Originally Posted by jberryhill

The rules were not "circumvented", dude, the rules were followed.

Where exatly in the Eurid rule is stated that anybody can apply for bogus Benelux trademarks upon which they can make claims for domains? Your own "read between the lines" rule following credo, I suspect, is not based on your own extensive knowledge of Eurid "unwritten" rules in regards to actual Benelux or European law, but on your own momentary and subjective pulp fiction interpretantion of the situation based upon high-blood pressure emotions and "legally cemented" knowledge "acquired" from years of dealing with ruthless and largely farcial American legal system where big corporations and presidents are allowed to walk free from their crimes on such "read between the lines" kindergarden technicalities.

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Setting up a legal entity in Europe is not some "technicality".

If you bothered to read my previous post you could have seen that my beef is not with last hour esteblished "phantom legal entities", but with Eurid allowing obviously bogus trademarks as a perfectly valid basis on which one could apply domain claims in Sunrise period. That is not to say that those who took Eurid for a ride are not "morally bankrupt".

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Something like 75% of NYSE-listed corporations are chartered in Delaware, which aside from being my place of residence, is a place where a $100 bill makes you every bit as much a legal corporation as Exxon.

Again you are talking about "technicalities" without addressing the "issue" as to why these TM applications were submitted to Benelux TM office in the first place.

Can I apply and be granted quick rights to 100s of simultaneous bogus trademarks in Delaware? Do tell?

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Any system of rules - any system - defines a course of conduct for obtaining a desired result.

That smacks of typical and quintesential interpretation of the corporate American bullshit which is taken as a gospel in your professional circles. In real world the interpretation of "any system of rules - any system" defines a course of conduct for not obtaining a potentially wrong result.

So I guess while you are interpreting that yahoos "followed those rules" by applying for all those trademarks first, I am interpreting that by doing so they "exploited the system". Paradoxically the system can very well be exploited by following the rules (especially "unwritten" ones) and that makes this whole issue pointless indeed. I admit that much.

[mole]

Originally Posted by jberryhill

He didn't "claim otherwise". What he did was a common thing that people who think they are clever often do in order to dodge a subject - say something that is very specifically true.

i) Over 95% of all .COM names will never see a sale
ii) mole has 0% ownership of .COM names

Originally Posted by denny007

God bless the speculators who took interest in the .eu extension. There should be no "TM holders grant" though, there should be first round auction - who pays most gets it. And possible TM complaints should be done after that in i.e. WIPO-panel style. But what else to expect from the EU bureaucrats...

I see you registered gogle.eu :-D

[Wot]

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck , and swims like a duck - chances are - It's a duck.

[StockDoctor]

Originally Posted by mark

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive"

Very good quote and to the point. It's a shame that the "spirit" of the rules (to protect legitimate TM holders and generics for the public fcfs) is ignored, and technicalities of the rules immediately researched to exploit them for personal gain. Others knew how to do it, and had the wherewithall to participate in the same manor, but chose a higher road. Those are the people I think should be commended. When awards are given out, or speeches done, wouldn't it be great to hear some language about the wonderful creativity that some groups came up with to exploit the rules, rather than just honoring them for reaping profits?

Like to add that it's always refreshing and entertaining to have John post some clarifications for us, and some of his wit to boot.

[Acro]

I live in the US and I'm also a EU citizen. Try stopping me.

PS. That was said to make a point, that a legal entity in the EU - even if it's made of partners from non-EU countries has equal rights to .eu domains.

[actnow]

Originally Posted by sasquatch

Are you saying that Benelux TM office lately exists only so that some "overseas phantoms" can apply for bogus trademarks irrelavant to their stated TM claims under that juristiction?

.....If you bothered to read my previous post you could have seen that my beef is not with last hour esteblished "phantom legal entities", but with Eurid allowing obviously bogus trademarks as a perfectly valid basis on which one could apply domain claims in Sunrise period.

...Again you are talking about "technicalities" without addressing the "issue" as to why these TM applications were submitted to Benelux TM office in the first place. .

The .EU has no right to judge if one trademark has more merit or higher standing than another.

In the U.S., one state respects the other U.S. states testing procedures for
driver licenses.

If your driver license was issued by Calif, does that give you a higher degree of driving ability than someone who received their license from Delaware?

I'm not happy about the abuse of the .EU rules. And, apparently, no one learned
anything from the .info landrush.

[jberryhill]

Why be vague?

I don't know, as I don't believe I've been vague at all.

I had plenty of people call me up and ask about the .eu launch months in advance and my advice, free for the asking, was "It looks as if you set up a corporation in the EU and file Benelux TM applications, then you'd have a shot at securing a .eu name." You'll see the same dialog on the International Trademark Association mailing list. I don't set up EU corporations, nor do I assist in filing Benelux TM applications, so it was no skin off my nose what people chose to do.

I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. You seem outraged, today, at a train wreck which was clearly predictable months and months ago.

If you like history, then read what I wrote about the foolishness of sunrise periods six years ago:

http://www.icann.org/dnso/wgb-report...tm#Attachment3

If you bothered to read my previous post you could have seen that my beef is not with last hour esteblished "phantom legal entities", but with Eurid allowing obviously bogus trademarks as a perfectly valid basis on which one could apply domain claims in Sunrise period.

Your beef appears to be with the way the Benelux TM registration is set up. I do not profess to any expertise in the Benelux system. I understand generally that it has entirely different standards and requirements than, for example, the US TM registration system, so I haven't reached a conclusion on whether any particular application was or was not "bogus".

My objection is that the Eurid rules themselves were bogus - they were stupid rules written by stupid people, and they are yielding stupid results.

Again you are talking about "technicalities" without addressing the "issue" as to why these TM applications were submitted to Benelux TM office in the first place.

Well, golly, the Benelux TM office invited people to do so, and specifically promised that applications filed by a certain date would be processed in time for the .eu application process. Now, they are free to run their system the way they'd like, but it was beyond stupid for Eurid to set the rules up the way they did when you can get perfectly "non bogus" rights under the Benelux system.

It's just an odd fact of sovereignty that countries can set up their legal system however they'd like. Concerning US states in our federal system, the same thing applies. My wife and I were married in Nevada because it was quick, cheap, and simple. I really don't feel like my marriage is thus "bogus".

The .EU has no right to judge if one trademark has more merit or higher standing than another.

Give the man a prize.

That smacks of typical and quintesential interpretation of the corporate American bullshit which is taken as a gospel in your professional circles.

People in my professional circles are generally stuck up a-holes who don't waste their time answering questions for free on internet bulletin boards, I'll tell you that much. To 99.99% of the legal profession YOU are not worth the dirt under their well manicured fingernails.

I didn't, and won't, make one thin dime off of the .eu launch, but I had no illusions that the rules were screwed from the get-go.

It's not just Benelux that has a screwy TM registration system. France also hands them out for virtually nothing, but they move slower. If you look back at, for example, the paint.biz STOP proceeding, you'll notice that it was premised on a perfectly valid French TM registration.

The problem is that the TM nazis have invested decades of effort into skewing rules in various countries in what they perceived to be their advantage, and now its biting them in the ass with domain name launch proceedings, because the "wrong" people have figured out their game. Too bad, so sad.

Can I apply and be granted quick rights to 100s of simultaneous bogus trademarks in Delaware? Do tell?

Delaware corporate name reservations are 10 bucks a pop. Here, knock yourself out:

https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/EntitySearch.jsp

[Acro]

Great points made.

I'm glad I won't be watching the Superbowl :-D

[actnow]

Originally Posted by Acroplex

I'm glad I won't be watching the Superbowl :-D

I'm reading this thread and also watching the Superbowl.

[jberryhill]

To be clear, the whois data I posted above was from one of the "expired" applications for chocolate.eu, not the "accepted" one.

Not having followed the .eu shenanigans closely, since I have no interest in it, and none of my clients engaged me to deal with it, I will admit that I find their whois system to be confusing.

But I don't find the .eu application process, or how it was utilized by anyone, to be the great moral issue of our time.

I mean, good golly, my country is being run by nutjobs and I'm supposed to get into a huff over something as inane as whether names in some TLD are being allocated according to some definition of "fair"? I've thought about the problem for going on 7 or 8 years now, and I still am mystified over the various conflicting notions that people have about "fair" domain name allocation.

It's like the scene in It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World where Buddy Hackett finally can't handle all of the different schemes for figuring out how to divvy up the cash. If you haven't seen that movie, by all means rent it.

Superbowl? What's a Superbowl?

[mark]

Score is 7-3 (Pittsburg) as of the start of the second half.

[actnow]

Originally Posted by mark

Score is 7-3 (Pittsburg) as of the start of the second half.

See how quickly things change.

Mark, one minute after you made your posting, you were incorrect.
It is now 14 - 3 - Pittsburgh.

[mark]

lol--they don't call it the SUPERBOWL for nothing

[Acro]

I wonder if superbowl.eu is worth anything :-D