Escrow.com Scam - Need Advice!

[OgieOgalthorpe]

dsf

[fryman04]

Did you take any snapshots of the porn images? Meaning, do you have proof of what he did to the site before returning it to you?

[Domagon]

You structured the escrow well by only using the domain name as opposed to content, etc ... but place where you went wrong was worrying about him accepting the "merchandise" ... escrow.com would likely have released the money to you eventually if you'd simply done nothing since the "merchandise" in this case, as far as escrow.com is concerned, is a domain name - once escrow.com sees the seller no longer has control of the domain and the buyer does, both the acceptance and inspection period are basically mute points.

In a nutshell, backing out of the deal is likely to cause you more headache than if you'd simply had waited and demanded your money from escrow.com directly.

Beating a dead horse though, since it sounds as if you now have control of the domain name again ... recovering any damages may be difficult, jurisdictional issues not withstanding, due to the fact the sale, as far as escrow.com is concerned, is for the domain name only. You appear to have the domain back - it's still registered and functions same as before, so where's the damage?

In regards to the future ... most people won't even know there was ever porn, etc at that domain while others will quickly forget - main thing is did you have good backups ... if so, then the best course is to restore everything back to the way it was and continue the website as if nothing ever happened; for the few who ask, simply explain the situation in brief and leave it at that - point is that you will likely lose very *few* visitors when all is said and done.

While it's great to get satisfaction, sometimes it's best to just move on - you appear to have your domain name back, you still have the content, etc ... fighting this guy is likely to hurt you more than it will him, especially if he loses money and then chooses to take revenge on you.

Good luck.

Ron

[OgieOgalthorpe]

Both good points, to answer the previous question. I do have a screenshot and the domain name back in my possession.

Now, I'm not necessarily looking for satisfaction or revenge on a level of not letting him have his money back.. I simply want some reimbursement for the damages caused to my domain name. I feel that it was damaged: defaced with this hatred message, which in reality will cause disgruntled visitors, loss of revenue, loss of visitors and etc. The content or website itself wasn't damaged since I have all my files in the original form and the hatred message is gone, it's just the domain name that is not associated with this hatred message for a large number of visitors that were on the site at that time yesterday. I feel like this was completely in-appropriate and would like some reimbursement for this malicious act on his part which I really feel all money aside that my domain was defaced.

The most I can prove damages would be for $1000 or so that the visitors saw the site for that day, possible ad sales lost, adsense revenue lost, product revenue lost, loss of visitors, etc etc. I have 3 more days to accept or reject his return in satisfactory condition. I really don't feel like this is satisfactory and I have way more grounds to sue or counter-sue if he does try to take legal action against me for allowing escrow to hold his funds for this reason. I don't see any reason to give him his money back a minute early after I have used every effort for the american arbitration association (i think this is what it's called that handles disagreements through escrow) to explain my stand on the domain name returned in the original condition. I'm just trying to figure out how to word and argue my case better as I'm not THAT familiar with escrow.com and the legal aspect of what I'm trying to do. However, from what I gather from some of the live chat reps if I do reject the domain it will goto arbitration after 60 days, if me and the buyer do not work things out.

What do you think my chances are here of getting atleast some kind of compensation for this mess? What would be my best course of action to do so through escrow.com and this arbitration? Is there any chance escrow.com will give him his money back once they see that the domain is now in my name?

You structured the escrow well by only using the domain name as opposed to content, etc ... but place where you went wrong was worrying about him accepting the "merchandise" ... escrow.com would likely have released the money to you eventually if you'd simply done nothing since the "merchandise" in this case, as far as escrow.com is concerned, is a domain name - once escrow.com sees the seller no longer has control of the domain and the buyer does, both the acceptance and inspection period are basically mute points.

In a nutshell, backing out of the deal is likely to cause you more headache than if you'd simply had waited and demanded your money from escrow.com directly.

Beating a dead horse though, since it sounds as if you now have control of the domain name again ... recovering any damages may be difficult, jurisdictional issues not withstanding, due to the fact the sale, as far as escrow.com is concerned, is for the domain name only. You appear to have the domain back - it's still registered and functions same as before, so where's the damage?

In regards to the future ... most people won't even know there was ever porn, etc at that domain while others will quickly forget - main thing is did you have good backups ... if so, then the best course is to restore everything back to the way it was and continue the website as if nothing ever happened; for the few who ask, simply explain the situation in brief and leave it at that - point is that you will likely lose very *few* visitors when all is said and done.

While it's great to get satisfaction, sometimes it's best to just move on - you appear to have your domain name back, you still have the content, etc ... fighting this guy is likely to hurt you more than it will him, especially if he loses money and then chooses to take revenge on you.

Good luck.

Ron

[JuniperPark]

I agree with Ron.

In future deals make sure it is clear the acceptance is not based on 'what the code looks like'.

[OgieOgalthorpe]

I must have not explained it good enough.

The deal between me and the buyer was based on the DOMAIN name itself and nothing more through escrow.com , the arrangement was that he would get the code and content after he approved the escrow transaction and accepted the merchandise(domain name) through escrow.com which would allow my funds to come to me. After this he would get assistance with the transfer of the files, script and help with using it on his or my Hosting.

So, as far as what we agreed to and how the escrow.com transaction was it WAS only based on the domain name. The files were to be given after I was paid(I don't think anyone would give away an original script before they were paid anyways.)

The thing with escrow.com is that it allows for an inspection period, which I set to 1 day and the buyer agreed to. During this inspection period they can accept or reject the transaction, I'm aware of the no action that will allow me to get paid as well but it was clear that he was trying to "rip me off" by getting my files then cancelling the transaction.

Any changed opinions based on this?
Thanks!

I agree with Ron.

In future deals make sure it is clear the acceptance is not based on 'what the code looks like'.

[JuniperPark]

Yes... then you were done and clear. I've had Escrow.com release funds to where the buyer was not replying and the WHOIS has been updated for over a week. Male sure the domain is clearly in the buyer name, none of that 'privacy' crap or different names.

[jberryhill]

So, as far as what we agreed to and how the escrow.com transaction was it WAS only based on the domain name.

It's not clear that the other side of the transaction understood that. Their behavior may be based on the simple misunderstanding that they were to get everything before payment was released, and they may have perceived that you were holding out on them.

Well he started talking in really bad english and partially not making sense.

Right. And you might not have been making sense to him either. That is how misunderstandings happen. They happen all of the time.

But, you've captured the essence of the situation vis a vis escrow.com. The transaction was cancelled and you have the domain name back. End of story. The "domain name" was not damaged or defaced - it is the same domain name it always was.

This sounds a lot like selling an automobile, and having a sales agreement that excludes delivery of the ignition key. He was sitting there with the car, and wondering why he hadn't gotten the key yet. The whole point of escrow was lost here, since there was no security on the buyer's end that he was going to get that key.

this was a unique script and I would never give it out in a million years without having a gaurantee that I'm getting my money

Then the way you structured this transaction was not appropriate, since the only security for both parties related to the domain name transfer.

[OgieOgalthorpe]

It's not clear that the other side of the transaction understood that. Their behavior may be based on the simple misunderstanding that they were to get everything before payment was released, and they may have perceived that you were holding out on them.

That's why we entered into a escrow.com agreement for JUST the domain name, as they don't cover anything else in this type of transaction anyways. The terms of the escrow.com agreement were JUST for the domain name, regardless of what we agreed to verbally for the remainder of the material, even though it was to be given after the escrow.com transaction.

It seems clear beyond any shadow of a doubt to me, why would someone enter into a escrow agreement that has VERY specific terms of JUST a domain name if they didn't understand that this transaction was JUST for hte domain name? Am I right?

[Acro]

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute.

Had the transaction gone well, the buyer would have done whatever he wanted to the domain's content. He could have placed up grandma's upskirts pics or images of horses running through fields with massive erections. It would not matter to you what the "faithful visitors" of your former domain would feel or think about.

Be glad you have the domain back and the loss was minimal, if any.

[OgieOgalthorpe]

Right.. but the transaction didn't go through and the point is that it was a scam to try to get my script. The buyer was enraged that his scam didn't work or just wanted to piss me off and decided to ruin my domain and he did a very good job of it

I'll play devil's advocate for a minute.

Had the transaction gone well, the buyer would have done whatever he wanted to the domain's content. He could have placed up grandma's upskirts pics or images of horses running through fields with massive erections. It would not matter to you what the "faithful visitors" of your former domain would feel or think about.

Be glad you have the domain back and the loss was minimal, if any.

[Acro]

Your should have never agreed to use the domain as a wrapper and its content as the item of value.

[HOWARD]

The moral of this story is that ESCROW.COM is in the escrow business; they are not attorneys and do not give legal advice in formulating your agreement with the buyer of your domain. Next time, I recommend that you utilize an attorney to draw up the agreement and hold the funds in escrow pending each party doing what they are supposed to be doing under the contract. That way there is no doubt as to each party's duties and obligations.

[OgieOgalthorpe]

The moral of this story is that ESCROW.COM is in the escrow business; they are not attorneys and do not give legal advice in formulating your agreement with the buyer of your domain. Next time, I recommend that you utilize an attorney to draw up the agreement and hold the funds in escrow pending each party doing what they are supposed to be doing under the contract. That way there is no doubt as to each party's duties and obligations.

Well the point is that this buyer was from ASIA and there would be extreme difficulties/cost in a proper contract that would apply to us both, I think.

That's why in place of a contract we entered into the escrow.com agreement, which is more effective in my mind since the buyer is from ASIA and I am from the U.S. than a formal contract. The terms of the escrow agreement are the contract, it's the same thing as when you buy something on eBay it's binding. Another point is the fact that I *DO* have the option to reject the domain transfer on grounds of not in the original condition (which it is NOT in my mind) and I think I have a valid arguement for this. I think this case needs a higher ruling on the escrow.com ladder or through the arbitration process..

[jberryhill]

It seems clear beyond any shadow of a doubt to me, why would someone enter into a escrow agreement that has VERY specific terms of JUST a domain name if they didn't understand that this transaction was JUST for hte domain name?

The key words are "understand" vs. "misunderstand". They may simply have misunderstood what they were to receive and when. There is a difference between being confused on the one hand, and having an incorrect understanding, on the other. When you misunderstand something, you don't know that you are mistaken.

Maybe it was a scam to get the script, and maybe it wasn't.

That's why we entered into a escrow.com agreement for JUST the domain name, as they don't cover anything else in this type of transaction anyways.

I don't know if they do this anymore, but Ritz Crackers used to print a recipe for "mock apple pie" on boxes of Ritz Crackers. I never tried it, but it was a pie recipe that used Ritz Crackers instead of apples. I could never figure out who on earth might want to make an apple pie and could get their hands on a couple of boxes of Ritz Crackers, but somehow wasn't able to find any apples.

If that's not helpful, then there's another way of looking at it...

My boys insist that I tell them a joke before they go to sleep at night. A while back, I was clean out of jokes, so I asked them:

"What's the difference between a light bulb and a hammer?"

"I don't know", they answered.

"Hey, guys, I don't want you driving any nails around here until you figure it out, okay?"

[OgieOgalthorpe]

Alright, so basically most people think I should accept the transfer and forget about it.

Does anyone think I *SHOULD* pursue this?

The key words are "understand" vs. "misunderstand". They may simply have misunderstood what they were to receive and when. There is a difference between being confused on the one hand, and having an incorrect understanding, on the other. When you misunderstand something, you don't know that you are mistaken.

Maybe it was a scam to get the script, and maybe it wasn't.



I don't know if they do this anymore, but Ritz Crackers used to print a recipe for "mock apple pie" on boxes of Ritz Crackers. I never tried it, but it was a pie recipe that used Ritz Crackers instead of apples. I could never figure out who on earth might want to make an apple pie and could get their hands on a couple of boxes of Ritz Crackers, but somehow wasn't able to find any apples.

If that's not helpful, then there's another way of looking at it...

My boys insist that I tell them a joke before they go to sleep at night. A while back, I was clean out of jokes, so I asked them:

"What's the difference between a light bulb and a hammer?"

"I don't know", they answered.

"Hey, guys, I don't want you driving any nails around here until you figure it out, okay?"

[JuniperPark]

It all depends on the $$ involved

Getting a lawyer on this will cost $2,000 - $10,000. You can spend a few days of your time in this as well. As is, Escrow.com WILL pay you if the name is transferred, which I thought was what you wanted. You can make a COM object or obscure your code until $$ are fully paid. Only you can decide if it's all worth it.

[Dave Zan]

Now, my question is:
Since my domain name has been defaced, my visitors will not return that saw this message, cost me money and flat out can never be put back in the condition it was before I transfered it to him.. Do I have the right to REJECT the receipt of the domain name in satisfactory condition? (it has an option to accept or reject the item)

This to me seems just like a case of a physical good that is smashed when the seller gets it back in a similiar situation.

Questions:

1. Is the question "do I have the right" or "should I exercise my right"?

2. Did I understand what your real question is correctly?

3. Is a domain name synonymous or equal to a website or just its contents?

Side note: when I was a customer support rep, my trainer emphasized the
importance of "paraphrasing" what my customer's inquiry is to make sure I
understood him or her correctly...

...BTW, John, how did your kids react to that joke you told them?

Alright, so basically most people think I should accept the transfer and forget about it.

Does anyone think I *SHOULD* pursue this?

Let your conscience be your guide. :-D

[OgieOgalthorpe]

Questions:

1. Is the question "do I have the right" or "should I exercise my right"?

2. Did I understand what your real question is correctly?

3. Is a domain name synonymous or equal to a website or just its contents?

I certainly have the right to reject his domain name, however I don't want to appear in the wrong in escrow.com's eye either, that is why I am deciding if my complaint is justified before I act.

I'm just looking for opinions on what I should do, at this point.

I feel like the domain name itself [domain].com was not returned in the original condition it left me, due to the reasons I have listed.

Has anyone been through the arbitration process after 60 days of rejection on escrow.com? I'd be interested in how that process works and if there was any possibility that they could rule in my favor in this situation, to atleast compensate damages to the item(the domain name) for as much as I can prove. Basically, I want to know if they will just see that I have the domain name and give the buyer his money regardless of my complaint.. in that situation I would just be wasting my time going through that process anyways.

[jberryhill]

BTW, John, how did your kids react to that joke you told them?

They threatened to beat me to death with a light bulb.