Fraudulent Sale Listing of My Domains

[William9]

Why would some one go to the effort of listing a domain for sale that isn't?

Occasionally, I survey the market by determining if other extensions of my names are listed for sale and for how much. On two occasions I found domains I own for sale. But, I have never ever listed a single domain of mine for sale. Thus, I was very upset by the finds.

The first occasion was about two-weeks after the .BIZs were awarded. I found one of mine listed on Great Domains. Great Domains were pretty nice on the phone. They even gave me the lister’s info and delisted it.

One hour ago, I just found another of my domains, Violet.info, listed on sedo. I just E-mailed them informing them of the situation, I do not know how long it was there.

I would have thought that before listing, boards would wait to receive an e-mail from someone listed in whois? What do I know?

Has anyone else been victimized by this situation. Does anyone else check the boards?

[adoptabledomains]

Most sales and auction sites don't do any verification of the whois record to list a name. Greatdomains is the only one I know of that does (or used to do) a comparison. Afternic and sedo do not. The other person may have made a typo in listing, or just added the wrong TLD by mistake, not necessarily fraud.

It could also be that the domain was owned by someone else in the past who listed it, let it expire, they you picked it up but they never removed the listing. This used to happen very frequently on Afternic when a listing remained forever until the lister removed it. Now they remove all domains after 30 days if they don't get a bid. sedo still has the potential for this. I still have a couple domains listed on Afternic that I let drop and cannot delete from afternic (bug?). At one time a couple years ago I had domains listed on many sites (some dropped, some sold). Some I don't even remember or know how to access. No doubt some may still be listed somewhere, but not intentionally.

It could be fraud, but more likely old listings or an error. I wouldn't jump to conclusions and charge anyone with "fraud".

[mole]

Originally posted by William9
The first occasion was about two-weeks after the .BIZs were awarded. I found one of mine listed on Great Domains.

Someone hoping it was theirs already?

[William9]

Thanks for the response Adorabledomains and for relating your experiences. You indicated that domains you dropped were still listed in your Afternic account. I do not believe that my situation is similar to yours. That is because I won both of the “listed” domains in a landrush. Thus, they never existed before I acquired them.

While it is possible that someone went to list a domain for sale and indicated the wrong TLD, my experience has been that in every case .COM is indicated when the individual meant to type .US, .INFO, or .ETC. I have never found the reverse.

As far as being a typo, the domains were generic words – not 4me2Udomain.info. While what you said is possible, in my mind it was highly unlikely.

As far as a comparison before listing, when I spoke to Great Domains they told me someone with an international phone number in Asia listed the domain. I live in Philadelphia, US. They did not even hint that they confirmed the listing – and they certainly never sent me an E-mail. Regardless, I have considered what you said. You know, if I ran a sale board, I would list a domain without confirmation, but I would still send a confirmation E-mail (->Trust but verify?)

Also, the mighty MOLE indicated that maybe it was a person hoping it was theirs already. Hmmm – I wish I had Yahoo or Dnforum - so I am going to list it for sale?:weird:

Thanks again everyone for your response.

[GiantDomains]

I would say it is just a glitch, or a previous owner. If not...

The person is acting like a middle man. If he receives an offer, he will low ball you, and hope to profit from buying, then selling.

Consider him a sales agent. He could be advertising it in a lot of palces. It ain't no big deal....you are the one who ultimately controls the sale price.

[cxz]

.

[avs162]

hey makes some offers and wait for lower offers

[William9]

My interpretation of doberry and avs162’s posts above is that they AGREE with me, that is, the listing of my domains for sale was intentional! While everyday of the week, resellers buy domains in the hope of reselling, doberry and avs162’s posts seem to suggest that BEFORE the reseller owns or attempts to own a domain, they list it for sale!

There are very few items that one can legitimately sell but not possess. An example is stocks, where one can “short” a stock or sell what one does not have. But that is highly regulated (eg. on the NYSE you can only short on an up-tick and on all exchanges it must be disclosed as a short) and highly disclosed.

I am not a lawyer; however, I think that there is a strong argument that the listing of a domain for sale – that is not for sale – is an improper action bordering on fraud [not on the part of the for-sale board, but by the person who lists it for sale].

Doberry indicated “It ain't no big deal”. I wonder how others would feel if I put up a “for sale $1,000” sign in front of your home. Would you scream? Would your neighbors scream? In addition to a liquidation of value, violation of privacy, and potentially fraudulent action, it for sure would REALLY tick everyone-off.

Finally, but not to be forgotten, there is the real possibility of evil wrongdoing. As one domain was a .BIZ, that listing of the domain for sale could have been cited in an UDRP action. Please do not write me the listing is not considered - you simply do not know. You can only say that in opinions, the arbitrator did not write that the listing was considered. But, you do not really know if it was considered. In addition, the .BIZ registry without UDRP, has re-acquired 1,000s of dotbiz because they were listed by a registrar on a board. So listing an undeveloped .BIZ for sale is a real risk. I have enough pressures in life already, I do not need risking losing a valuable .BIZ that I am developing because some turkey puts a for-sale sign in my front yard.

Once again, thank you everyone for your posts and thoughts.

[William9]

sedo took immediate action on my E-mail informing them of the situation in this thread:

“First of all let me apologize for the inconvenience.
While we do regularly verify the
WHOIS data of domain names listed for sale with us, sometimes
an error slips through on one of our bulk accounts.

I have deleted the incorrect entry …

I hope that helps, and please don't hesitate to contact me
if there is anything else that we can do for you.

Have a great day,”


Board members who have been following this thread will note that sedo indicates that they DO verify whois data. So it does not look like I will be able to list Yahoo with them after all. However, I will still stick a $1,000 for-sale sign in doberry’s front yard.

Case closed.

[Ari Goldberger]

One of my concerns with unauthorized 3rd party listings of domains is that a trademark holder might try and use it against you in a future action as evidence that you were offering the domain for sale.

[Ciqala]

this could even be taken to the extreme and become a way of 'hijacking' a domain... just think someone is about to dispute your domain name because they believe they are entitled to it moreso than yourself so they go and list it for sale under an assumed name and wait a few weeks or months... then they file the action and just like that they have you on the back footing having to defend your innocence before you have even had a chance to put forward your case.

Ciq

[William9]

Ari indicated a concern that the unauthorized listing could be used as evidence against me in a future action. That was certainly one of my major concerns and why I took immediate action. While not a certainty, I feel my E-mail notifying the sale-board of the situation and their E-mail response would weigh in my favor as evidence that the offering was not sanctioned by me. Even this thread could be additional evidence of my efforts and concerns.

I interpret what Ciqala wrote to mean there is a new move in the play-book. “List it [the domain you want to high-jack] for sale under an assumed name and wait a few weeks or months... then they file the action”. I believe what Ciquala indicates is a risk, however, in my mind it would be fraud. In addition, if the sale-boards more effectively check-out the listing, that risk would be eliminated.

I believe a risk greater than Ciqala’s concern is what Ari may have been alluding to. The risk that a trademark holder, NOT knowing that the listing was not sanctioned, would cite the listing in a filing.

So based on Ari’s concern and Ciqula’s thinking - I recommend that to reduce the risk that an unauthorized listing of a domain for-sale could be used in a future action, you should routinely check out for-sale boards to determine if an un-sanctioned listing of your domains has occurred.

Thanks again for everyone’s comments and thoughts.

[Fearless]

I had an idiot former DNForum member, Faze/Big, list a couple of my names on Great Domains and Afternic. One of them I bid on and won the bid because it was the only way to get the Afternic auction to end.

[William9]

Gregr indicated how he was victimized by an unauthorized listing. Unable to get the competing for-sale board to de-list, he bid and won his own domain! I was wondering if Gregr meant to post that story to the TwilightZoneforum and posted it to the legal forum in error?

I also wonder what would happen if Gregr lost the bidding. Actually, I don’t think Gregr cared what the bid was. Even though Gregr was a victim, he could have been cited as masterminding some sort of market manipulation. Regardless, I am glad that it worked out (how much did he bid?).

The root cause of Gregr being victimized was because the for-sale board did not verify with someone listed in whois.

Thanks so much for sharing that story Gregr. Hopefully my situation will remain a lot less stressful than yours must have been.