This has to be Fraud....

[WhoDatDog]

If someone has 33 names in an auction (that are worth close to zero), and they state in the thread that there have been three offers over 10K and that one of those offers has been from a DN Forum member, then I expect those statements to be true. My question is this: is it fraud if no one buys the names? It certainly would be Fraud if someone bought the names and then found out that those "have an offer of over 10K" statements were false.

It seems to me that this potential fraud happens alot, though it normally isn't so blatant. In EXTREME cases such as this, someone should be able to ask "where are the offers coming from" and then make an offer that is consistent with the value of the names without getting a warning point. People should be able to ask any price for their names, but statements of fact that are obviously false should be met with skepticism. Maybe it's just me.

http://www.dnforum.com/f150/premium-...ad-126385.html

[DNGeeks]

Fraud? I doubt it, false advertising probably.

Yes buyers do this kind of stuff to push up their price. I've had buyers come back to me after they said someone sent them a PM for a higher price and later retracted their bid, then I lowered my bid.

Can you make them prove they have a bid? Not really. The best thing to do is to just ignore them so they'll go away.

I agree with being able to make an offer for what you feel the names are worth without being penalized. But that's not likely to happen. On this and other forums I see users selling domains for 10 times the price it should be, and making realistic offers only gets you in trouble. It's not worth your time to deal with these types of threads.

Don't forget that you could send a PM with an offer, that shouldn't affect your standing except with that member.

[slimcrazy.com]

I post alot of sales threads I get offers all the time in PM alot of the times, the new buyers do not want people to know who is buying the domains. I had several offers on a package I was asking BIN $2500 in pm, some at $2,000 I still did not sell since I was firm, but I do post to let people know there are other people making offers.

Do i believe he got $10k plus offers on that package on this board? No not in one second.

It would be fake shilling and shill bidding is not good, but the person in this case if this is what he did only hurt himself, as once someone sees a 10k offer on a package like that, they are not going to submit a $500 offer.

Any how just my 2 cents.

[Steen]

Seems to be rampant across all industry when someone's trying to sell something. Perhaps not to this extreme though (wrothless names being bid up to $10k).

[WhoDatDog]

Your responses were great. I did make an offer that was extremely low, but that was to prove my point (names worth close to zero). I'm not sure why I actually care about the thread, but it was so ridiculous I somehow took it personally. I couldn't just call him a liar in a post, even though I would wager my DN Forum Membership on that opinion. I understand the reasoning behind PM'ing offers, and I have done so myself, I just think it's ugly when someone is so out of line like this. I'm sure that this happens often in other threads, but this one jumped out and grabbed me. Maybe there is a way for people to question statements of fact that are used to sell names without getting warning points. People have the right to sell their names for any price, but they should suffer consequences when they lie, because if there is a sale, then the fraud is immediate.

[jberryhill]

So when Ron Popeil sells his junk on television by saying "A $300 value can be yours for 4 easy payments of $19.95" then you are saying that he is engaging in fraud?

Uh, no.

Whether there are, or are not, other offers on an item you are considering purchasing is entirely irrelevant to your assessment of what the item is worth and what you are willing to pay for it. If the seller wants too much, then nobody is putting a gun to your head to make you buy it. If you decide you want to pay X for the item, and you pay X for the item, you have not been defrauded of anything.

[Rubber Duck]

Well, it is clear that this guy is not a reputable domainer. All the domains were registered recently and about the same time that he joined the forum.

I think it almost certain that the bids posted are bogus. Having said that I get a lot of bids at sedo where the buyer never materialises. Its all part and parcel of the online scenario. You just have to be cautious in your approach.

You cannot prove a thing, but that's life.

When I joined this forum I had a look at the Sales threads. I decided at that time I did not want to sell domains here. I have seen nothing during my period of membership to make me change my mind.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[Honan]

snip....................
When I joined this forum I had a look at the Sales threads. I decided at that time I did not want to sell domains here. I have seen nothing during my period of membership to make me change my mind.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

Dave
I don't understand
Why don't you want to sell here?
There are certainly many reputable buyers and sellers here
You cannot tell much about sales here by browsing the sales threads
All the best sales are edited out as soon as they are sold, usually as a matter of courtesy to the buyer

[Rubber Duck]

Actually, I have just decided to quit the Forum altogether.

I am absolutely sick of this place as a discussion Forum.

Best Regards
Dave Wrixon

[WhoDatDog]

Mr Berryhill I cannot believe you responded in that manner. It absolutely would be FRAUD if someone purchased those names based on the material misrepresentation of FACT that there were bids over 10K. Anyone can say "these domains are the best in the world and are worth one million dollars", but to say that it is not fraud to sell a name based on misprepresentation of fact is absolutely wrong. I stated that the fraud is immediate if someone bought the names and those bullshit statements could be proven to be untrue. THAT IS FACT. Saying that there is a bid in an auction setting is the same thing as having someone else FAKE a bid. I'm not worried about myself getting trapped, but what if a Newbie spent his first 15K on an auction like this? It is a lot different than the Ron Popiel example you gave above. These shill-bidders below should have hired you.

The sixteen-count indictment charges KENNETH FETTERMAN, 33, of Placerville, California; KENNETH A. WALTON, 33, of Sacramento, California; and SCOTT BEACH, 31, of Lakewood, Colorado, with wire fraud and mail fraud for making the fraudulent bids, also known as "shill bids." WALTON is charged with three counts of wire fraud and four counts of mail fraud; BEACH is charged with one count of wire fraud and three counts of mail fraud; and FETTERMAN is charged with four counts of wire fraud, six counts of mail fraud, and six counts of money laundering for promoting the fraudulent bidding scheme using laundered funds. The fraud counts each carry a sentence of up to five years in prison and a $250,000 fine, and the money laundering counts carry a sentence of up to twenty years in prison and a $500,000 fine.

According to Assistant U.S. Attorneys Christopher P. Sonderby and Michael J. Malecek, who are prosecuting the case, the Indictment alleges that the defendants created more than 40 User IDs on eBay using false registration information, and then used those aliases to place fraudulent bids to artificially inflate the prices of literally hundreds of paintings they auctioned on eBay from November 1998 to June 2000.

[jberryhill]

Mr Berryhill I cannot believe you responded in that manner.

You get what you pay for.

Whether a statement to the effect of "I have offers up to 10K" is indeed "material" is a debatable proposition, and I really don't care if your caps lock key is broken or not. Materiality is a specific term.

I could say that I really need to sell these domains because I'm late on my bills and need the money, and that might be untrue. It still doesn't have any effect on your perception of the value of the domains and what YOU are willing to pay for them.

You can't say that you bought X based on the representation that there were such other offers, because once YOU have bought the domain, those offers made to the seller, whether real or not, are extinguished because they were not accepted. So, how can you claim a reliance interest in them, real or not? YOU would not be able to revive those "other offers" to your benefit even if they WERE real. Accordingly, you cannot argue that you have lost anything - and THAT is a requirement of fraud.

Let's look at it another way... I am selling X for $500, and I tell you that I've had offers as high as $450. You go ahead and pay the $500. You then find out that I lied about those other offers.

You tell me - to the penny - what is the amount you would claim by which you have been damaged by the misrepresentation? $50? The whole $500? What, specifically?

The bottom line remains that I wasn't going to sell X for anything less than $500. So lying about whether I'd had offers up to $450 didn't make a single difference at all in what anyone was going to have to pay me for X.

[maroulis]

and to add to this... Proved Shill bidding would be considered if indeed he had different usernames using same IP and pumping his sales thread... I agree w/John it's hard to prove the damages based on "material" statement...

if you feel they worth $10K place an offer, if you feel otherwise simply laugh and move on.. In this life everything is relative, xbox 360 had a RRP of $299/$399 yet people were paying $1500... does the extra $1200 in any way constitute personal compensation of something that can be regulated? absolutely no...

the problem with the sales threads and all these DN forums, is that 2% of the sellers & forum members are worth interacting and trading with. The rest is just people who give bad reputation to this industry and only fuel the "bubble" rumours...

In reality though this is what happens in real life also...

just my 0.02c

[StockDoctor]

Got to say that the pump and dump has been more prevalent here than it used to be. Some of these garbage names posted where the seller says it's sure worth $xx,xxx and his buddies (newer) chime in with their support.

Also, I've sold names on this forum for years and am thankful to Adam, and Greg and Dan for making that possible, and never had much of a problem. But lately, with the new kids and all the scams, I can see why Dave Wrixon is getting frustrated. I've had 4 sales of names in the last 3 weeks (on various forums and sedo) where the buyer just evaporates. A shame when several others were actively bidding. Messes everything up for everyone.
Doc

[WhoDatDog]

Yeah, just laugh it off and move on. No biggie. Fraud is no big deal if it doesn't happen to any of us...right? Shill-Bidding should be encouraged and welcomed. Even a respected attorney like Mr Berryhill sees no problem in inducing people to buy based on fraudulent statements. I'm not on a crusade, but I find it laughable that such an obvious fraud is shrugged off like this. One of these days it will happen to you...we'll wait until it does and then we'll revisit this situation. You are welcome to try to cheat me....it's not going to happen, even if you think fraud is an acceptable practice on this forum. If you think that taking advantage of Newbies by fraudulent means is ok then that is your ethical choice. We were all Newbies at some point. I was never taken advantage of, but I have a feeling that there will be some sour domainers in the very near future if fraud is allowed.

Mr Steve Proffitt says:

The law of fraud doesn't change like a chameleon according to its backdrop. The law applies equally to auctions and auctioneers, just as it does to wholesalers, liquidators, and retailers. When I address auctioneers or auctioneering students on the subject of fraud, I emphasize that nowhere in the law is there any exception for auctions, auctioneers, or any particular type of asset. Phantom bids are fraudulent in every auction where they are called.

Steve Proffitt is a Virginia attorney-at-law, auctioneer, and an instructor at the Reppert School of Auctioneering in Auburn, Indiana, and at the Mendenhall School of Auctioneering in High Point, North Carolina. He welcomes questions from readers about all aspects of auctions and auctioneering. Mr. Proffitt will answer selected questions in this column, but he cannot provide personal answers. The answers given do not represent legal advice or the formation of an attorney-client relationship. Readers should seek the advice of their own attorneys in their respective states on all legal issues. Please submit questions to PO Box 1013, Dept. M, Staunton, VA 24401, or email AuctionLaw@msn.com.

[jberryhill]

Shill bidding during an auction is one thing, puffery during a non-auction sale is quite another.

So, WhoDatDog, are you going to hide behind an alias and misrepresent what I said, or are you going to answer my question?

Even a respected attorney like Mr Berryhill sees no problem in inducing people to buy based on fraudulent statements.

That is not what I said. The question is one of whether a false statement is material, and you know that.

What we DO know about you, is that you are a liar.

[maroulis]

OMG - that's WAY out of line my friend..

(a) nobody said it's bid shilling is accepted be it here (DNF) or other places
(b) nobody on this thread is trying to cheat you
(c) stop making generalizations and using Ctrl+C / Ctrl+V from legal sites you are obviously NOT in legal industry

John tried to give you a legal point of view, he also happens to be a very respected member. You can argue all your want, but last time I checked he was a laywer whereas you're not...

forums are places w/rules and moderators - to fully moderate all activities of each and every one of us it would take equal number of staff which I'm sure it's highly UNREASONABLE..

I said LAUGH and MOVE ON as there are lots of more important stuff in this life & this forum than paying MORE attention to some guy trying to sell crappy domains for $10K. Yes you're a newbie, but respect others & their opinions and think TWICE (actually THREE or FOUR times) before hitting the POST button...

all the best..

PS I see you just got yourself a nice warning...

[WhoDatDog]

Mr Berryhill, in addition to calling me a liar, you stated the following:

Whether there are, or are not, other offers on an item you are considering purchasing is entirely irrelevant to your assessment of what the item is worth and what you are willing to pay for it. If the seller wants too much, then nobody is putting a gun to your head to make you buy it. If you decide you want to pay X for the item, and you pay X for the item, you have not been defrauded of anything.

The law disagrees with you and would call those Shill-Bids fraudulent. So, you see nothing wrong with fraudulent bids in an auction that encourage someone to buy. What am I missing about your position?

[maroulis]

John has re-iterated that the price you bid or pay for a DOMAIN NAME is dependent on your own valuation / reasoning NOT to what other people are bidding.

Law states phantom bids to be unlawful if misused .. how are you going to take him let's say to court and prove that his bids/claims were infactual?. Furthermore as John ALREADY explained how are you going to prove damages incurred as a result of participating or even winning the above mentioned auction? The seller has not made any misleading representations such as "these domains will make you a millionaire" or "generate $XXX per day" so there's absolutely no room for misinterpretation...

Last I checked you didn't even BID on the thread you're complaining about...

[labrocca]

Well let's see if I can argue against the great JBH.

According to this definition of fraud: http://www.answers.com/fraud&r=67

I would say yes it's fraud as it falls under the trickery definition. Also it can be argued that he is getting unlawful gain but I think that position is very weak and I will agree with JBH that you can't really show damages enough to make any claims. The legal definition of fraud may be different and I am sure that what he is doing is wrong....just not illegal imho.

A $300 value can be yours for 4 easy payments of $19.95

Technically that's NOT a lie. Any business can create their own MSRP and then lower the price. However saying he has an offer IS a lie and can artificially inflate the price from that lie resulting in fraud.

http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/3485301

Doing some research from google with terms like "shill bidding laws" and such...you can find a few areas where suits have been created. If he doesn't have legit bids from real people then he is enganging in shill bidding. I don't think it's something to get hysterical about. He should either be banned here or simply ignored. But let's imagine some noob did get caught up in his sale and paid him $15k for those domains only to find out they are garbage. He might have a case for damages of fraud imho. JBH I am not saying he would win just that I would think he would have a possible case.

What do you think?

[WhoDatDog]

The law is contrary to what Mr Berryhill states. The thread I am referring to is in fact in an auction thread. I am not talking about a personal loss. I bid $20 and received a warning point and the post removed.

Maybe I should clarify this and make it simple: Should Shill/Fake Bids be allowed in an auction setting? The answer legally is "No". Many of you have already stated that you have no problem with it and that it is "buyer beware". I learned a lot from this thread, so thanks for all of your help.

I found this from an Ebay case

Even though phantom bidding - identical to shill bidding, but perpetrated by an individual rather than co-conspirators — violates state and federal criminal fraud statutes and constitutes fraud under civil law....

From this article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078735/