help: previous owner starts legal proceedings

**tomh** · 08-31-2009, 02:44 AM

Hi,

Can anyone could advise me?

I bought BangkokNightlife.com from a DNF member in good faith a few months ago.

This week the original owner of the domain has taken proceedings against me claiming:

1. The name was stolen from him and transferred to Moniker illegally from where it was sold on and eventually bought by me.

2. He previously used the domain to advertise his hotel business and that the name is therefore trademarked by him

The case is coming before Hong Kong Office of the Asian Domain Name Dispute Resoution Centre in a few days and I really don't know where to start.

Advice gratefully received.

tom

**denny007** · 08-31-2009, 03:28 AM

He previously used the domain to advertise his hotel business and that the name is therefore trademarked by him

That's bullshit argument

The case is coming before Hong Kong Office of the Asian Domain Name Dispute Resoution Centre in a few days and I really don't know where to start.

Just read few UDRPs and you are ready to answer, they have no way to claim trademark and for claim of a stolen name they would have to go through courts no UDRP, imho

**tomh** · 08-31-2009, 03:41 AM

Thanks Denny,

A report about this domain "theft" has been made to the Thai police and copied to me. But the report contains no evidence of a theft beyond the complainant's statement and - as far as I have been informed - has not been pursued in any meaningful way by Thai police or resulted in any criminal charges, or court case.

anyway thanks for your advice. I'll read a few UDRPs

tom

**katherine** · 08-31-2009, 03:47 AM

UDRP has already been used to recover stolen domains.

But stolen ? How ?
Could be that the previous owner totally forgot about the name then it expired and was auctioned off by the registrar. Now he's waking up after several months. But nobody stole from him really.

**denny007** · 08-31-2009, 03:54 AM

A report about this domain "theft" has been made to the Thai police

It does not matter if it was filled even to Krakozhia police, because the domain is in US jurisdiction and you are in Hongkong jurisdiction.

UDRP body can decide only TM based disputes and he should not have chance as long as the domain is parked within its generic meaning (that means "Bangkok nightlife").

Here is a lot of ADNRC decisions
https://www.adndrc.org/icann/iPubdec...ision?OpenView
UNtil now I had no idea this body exists for UDRP, I thought there is only NAF, WIPO and the one in Prague

**tomh** · 08-31-2009, 04:01 AM

More info: there are two domains related to this case. The other - PattayaHotel.com - I do not own. But notice it was recently offered for sale on this site.

The complainant says both names - BangkokNightlife.com and PattayaHotel.com - were stolen. The paperwork I have (grimy and half-legible print outs from Network Solutions) is unclear. It would take an expert to work out whether the domains were stolen, deleted by an employee or just allowed to expire.

If anyone has a few minutes and is able to decode a Network Solutions' account page, I would be happy to forward them the papers I have

tom

Hey Denny

Thanks for the link on ADNDRC decisions... fascinating reading. It also help me understand how to respond to the case in a way that will be lucid and useful.

Thanks again.

tom

**denny007** · 08-31-2009, 04:22 AM

Well according Domaintools the doamin at Netsol was not to expire till September 2009 so it was not drop.

What I would do is offer it back to him for what I paid and only after I verified he is really the old owner - I would send him email to the old whois email. If however this email @writeme has been compromised that would be tough...

The offer for what you paid should be withing definition "out pf pocket cvosts", although I saw decisions where they rejected this saying that the only "out of pocket costs" aceptable are $35 (Netsol fee), because majority of panelists are morons biased against people owning more than few domains...

**tomh** · 08-31-2009, 05:33 AM

Hi Denny, Not sure that will work. Just noticed an email in the paperwork where a previous owner of the domain offered to sell it back to the original registrant for the price he paid. The offer was angrily rejected.

I am going to defend the case.

**GUA** · 08-31-2009, 06:01 AM

At a cost at at least $5k... where you will most likely lose as it is stolen?

**katherine** · 08-31-2009, 06:15 AM

It looks like BangkokNightlife.com was allowed to expire at network solutions a few months ago (name servers: PENDINGRENEWALDELETION.COM): http://www.hosterstats.com/historica...kNightlife.com
See PattayaHotel.com: http://www.hosterstats.com/historica...ttayaHotel.com
Same story. I bet these names expired so they were auctioned off by the registrar and bought in good faith.

**denny007** · 08-31-2009, 06:22 AM

At a cost at at least $5k... where you will most likely lose as it is stolen?

What are you smoking ? Why should he spend anything ?

He will spend some time reading UDRP which is good education then will spend 20 minutes writing an answer. I won several UDRP proceedings, never spent more than one hour per answer with research and typing.

Otherwise he will not spend a penny - and why should he ?

THerre is of course no trademark even not common one, the complainant is not globally known under that name and even if he would be as long the domain is used in its generic meaning it does not matter. If Microsoft would forget to renew windows.com and someone started offering windows and doors (the hardware) they would have no claim either.

Now I do not know how much the domain was sold for but my guess not over $1K so the original owner rather shells our $1K for UDRP fee + lawyers fee instead of pay what this guy paid bona fide ?

**GUA** · 08-31-2009, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by denny007

What are you smoking ? Why should he spend anything ?

He will spend some time reading UDRP which is good education then will spend 20 minutes writing an answer. I won several UDRP proceedings, never spent more than one hour per answer with research and typing.

Otherwise he will not spend a penny - and why should he ?

THerre is of course no trademark even not common one, the complainant is not globally known under that name and even if he would be as long the domain is used in its generic meaning it does not matter. If Microsoft would forget to renew windows.com and someone started offering windows and doors (the hardware) they would have no claim either.

Now I do not know how much the domain was sold for but my guess not over $1K so the original owner rather shells our $1K for UDRP fee + lawyers fee instead of pay what this guy paid bona fide ?

Sorry for my naivety, but I was under the assumption that you REALLY had to know what you were doing to fight a UDRP solo, and the legal costs etc of a defense were in excess of $5k...

**denny007** · 08-31-2009, 06:36 AM

Sorry for my naivety, but I was under the assumption that you REALLY had to know what you were doing to fight a UDRP solo, and the legal costs etc of a defense were in excess of $5k...

As long as you can do copy/paste can write some english and are not total moron everyone can write an answer, there is actually not other way for names with value bellow say $10K. Domain I paid less than $10K I will always defend by myself.

**tomh** · 08-31-2009, 06:49 AM

Actually, Denny is right. Now, I've read a few UDRP decisions I am confident I have a case and can make it. Gonna take more than a couple of hours though.

I'll report back on how the case goes.

**GUA** · 08-31-2009, 07:14 AM

Interesting info, given I potentially have a pending UDRP against me. Thought I was going to have to sell out $5k. Best of luck Tom.

**Cartoonz** · 08-31-2009, 09:50 AM

Sure looks like that name expired at Netsol and was auctioned off... and the guy is lying about using it, even prior to that... it had lamedelegation nameservers as far back as 04/2007. So it wasn't stolen at all and Network Solutions can certainly furnish proof of that.

As for the TM? Laughable, at best.

**Acro** · 08-31-2009, 10:18 AM

Apparently the former owner did not renew it. That's your starting point. Netsol auctioned it off via Namejet. Get hold of that info from the person who sold it to you.

**Gerry** · 08-31-2009, 10:37 AM

Hope it works out for you.

I am threatened all the time by "former" owners.

**katherine** · 08-31-2009, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Doc Com

I am threatened all the time by "former" owners.

Really ? I almost never ever hear from the previous owners which means the domains were truly abandoned. I like it this way.

Acro is right, you need to gather all the details from whoever sold the name to you. As soon as the sale is documented it will be difficult for the other party to uphold the story of theft. This one will be fun to watch.

**Gerry** · 08-31-2009, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by sdsinc

Really ? I almost never ever hear from the previous owners which means the domains were truly abandoned. I like it this way.

Is "I almost never..." implies that you have heard from previous owners?

Typically this happens when I purchase numerous names. Almost definitely happens when I win a contested auction. I am amazed at the excuses and, yes, I actually had someone say his wife forgot to renew it.

I can not discount them as being truthful, but I have to consider what I am dealing with. And I used to give, yes, GIVE the domain back when someone made a claim. This was perhaps 6-8 years ago when I started getting into drop auctions or catches big time.

We all know that most registrars give plenty of notice (almost to the point of spamming) yet many claim they never got notice. The most recent was a guy who emailed a couple of weeks ago. All the data was correct including the historical WHOIS email. We know GoDaddy bugs you about 90 days out.