KS.com transferred away without notification

[toho]

It looks eNom transfer KS.com from MY eNom account to NSI without any notify.

I sent mail 3 times to them (Martin Garthwaite) but they did not any reply to me. And time is still before 25. Nov.

Even I did not received any mail from NSI & Robert Akscyn, president of Knowledge Systems.

Nobody proof this domain was stolen, but eNom transfer out this domain.

How to protect our properties ?
How to proof domain was not stolen when you buy domain from someone ?
Do you have good idea ?
You have risk same of me.

What do you think eNom action ?
What is registrar business ?



************************************
Dear Satoshi Shimoshita:

It is my unfortunate duty to send you this email.

We have received information from Network Solutions
that the domain name listed in the subject line of
this email was appropriated from the lawful registrant
without the registrant's consent.

The party claiming to be the lawful registrant is a
Robert Akscyn, president of Knowledge Systems, incorporated
in Pennsylvania. Network Solutions has WHOIS information
dating back to 1993 which shows Mr. Akscyn as being the
registrant. Mr. Akscyn has stated and signed a letter
asserting that he never authorized a transfer of the domain
name away from Network Solutions, let alone a transfer to
Tucows and then to eNom.

Under U.S. law, stolen property must be returned to its rightful
owner, regardless of whether or not a third party subsequently
acquired the property without knowledge that the property was stolen.

If you dispute these allegations and assert that you are lawfully
entitled to be listed as the registrant, you MUST respond to this
email by the end of the day on November 25, 2003 (Pacific Standard Time)
and provide information which would establish that you are entitled to
be listed as the registrant.

IMPORTANT: If you do NOT respond to this email, I will assume that
essentially concede that the domain name should be returned to Mr. Akscyn.

Martin Garthwaite
General Counsel
eNom, Inc.
2002 156th Avenue NE
Bellevue, WA 98007
phone: 425-883-8860 ext 270

*******************************************

[Domagon]

I did some research on the domain...it appears KS.COM did *NOT* expire, which means Robert Akscyn either transferred the domain to another party -or- the domain was stolen.

At this point, in my view, your only viable option is to contact the seller of the domain and demand a refund - you may have to negotiate, such as settling for only 50% of what you paid.

A long shot, is to get an attorney to research the matter to see if you can recover any monies from Afternic.com - for example, the sales commission of ~1,000 USD they received for the KS.COM sale. I doubt you'd be able to due to the members agreement you agreed to when using Afternic.com, but then hey there may be a way...that's what attorneys get paid for d

Good luck!

Ron

[ReignDomain]

"Under U.S. law, stolen property must be returned to its rightful
owner, regardless of whether or not a third party subsequently
acquired the property without knowledge that the property was stolen."



Well, at least they consider domain a "property".

[Domagon]

Originally posted by ReignDomain

"Under U.S. law, stolen property must be returned to its rightful
owner, regardless of whether or not a third party subsequently
acquired the property without knowledge that the property was stolen."


Well, at least they consider domain a "property".

Yes, it's interesting Enom phrased it that way, but it would have been more significant if NSI had made that comment...has NSI made any similar comments about domains being "property" in correspondence? Not that it matters much these days, since the concensus in many circles is that domains are "property", but still worth nothing such comments nevertheless.

On an aside, one of many lessons here is that buyers better have proof of purchase for domains they buy.

And folks who use PayPal...you're SOL. PayPal is NOT a bank, their security sucks, and basically they will likely stonewall and provide little to no additional information in any investigation - even then, such information may be of dubious value due to the rampant level of identity theft and lack of controls on PayPal transactions.

For premium domain name transactions, one in my view, should have a written contract, or at minimum pay using a method that's traceable and can be legally documented, such as check, money order, bankwire, etc.

The buyer of KS.COM likely payed via bankwire, but I mentioned the above, since many folks here are using PayPal for some relatively large transactions without being truly aware of the potential hazards of using that form of payment, such as lack of proper controls and poor security.

Ron

[toho]

valuenames. Thank you for your comment.

I am not interested about the way of recovering my money write here.

My concern is eNom action.
I did not received any proof this matter.(ofcause I requested to eNom)
25.Nov is not expire day. Even I sent mail them 3 times.
But eNom ignore my mail and they accept NSI request and transfered at 21.Nov.

Is it American justice?

One more thing
I did not received any dispute document about this domain from any person. But eNom transfer out my domain without my approves.

Do you want keep your important domain such kind of registrar ?

Not important things, but Pegiz still own Cost.net , We.net may be some more.
If he stolen good domains, why NSI did not recover these domains ?

One more thing. I do not blame AfterNIC.com
They were always cooperative for the investigation of this matter.
Finally, I decided purchase KS.com thru AfterNIC.com by myself.

toho

[Spider]

Since you bought it through Afternic are they refunding you?

[toho]

Hi Spider.

KS.com still in my eNom account until last weekend.
But On-Hold.

I did not notice AfterNIC.com yet.
I paid my money to AfterNIC.com already.
I purchased domain thru AfterNIC. But I just knew I lost my domain this morning.
It mean, may be I lost my money right now for some strange registrar. (eNom)
This is not small money.

[Spider]

I would think Afternic would he held accountable for brokering a stolen domain name. I would contact them for sure. This entire post is about a broker offering something for sale that was stolen. Sounds like Afternic is in the same boat as Chris.

[toho]

Yeah, I will listen to the other person's opinion few days more.
And I will ask Roger this weekend.

Thanks Spider.

[Domagon]

Registrars hold physical possession of domain names, not registrants. Registrants are granted control by registrars.

Point is that unless you are a registrar, which few individuals are (doesn't make sense to pay all the money required unless one owns more than 10,000 domains), you are at the mercy of a registrar, in your case, Enom. Folks who don't think so should spend a few minutes and read the registrant agreement of the registrar(s) they use - they may be surprised what they have agreed to, and what few rights/recourse they actually have.

Registrars have the power...to delete, transfer, update, etc domain names that they possess in their accounts. ICANN primarily deals with registrars, not registrants.

Enom should have waited until the 25th, but didn't have too.

And they don't have to wait for any proof. In disputes like yours, Enom, and many other registrars too, when in doubt will transfer a questionable domain name back to the previous registrar.

And in defense of Enom, they did give you notice and waited awhile before transferring it back. The person you bought it from, according to some others, has been involved some other dubious sales...such as the domain name shown in this thread title.

Lastly, at this point, in my opinion, if you really want to fight this, you should get an attorney experienced in domain name disputes. Legal action may be your only option now...

Ron

[toho]

valuenames.

Many thanks for your opinion.
It is helpful.

[jberryhill]

"Enom, and many other registrars too, when in doubt will transfer a questionable domain name back to the previous registrar."

What he said. And double for reading the registration agreement.

You have to realize, despite how "valuable" a domain name is to you, from the registrar's point of view they are looking at a transaction that nets them, what, a couple of dollars? They are not going to bite their nails and worry a whole lot over whether they make the "right" decision in these kinds of circumstances, because the registration agreement (and it doesn't matter WHICH registrar we are talking about here) protects them from virtually any liability regardless of what they do.

So, they make pragmatic choices in these situations. These choices are dictated by the principle of keeping their expenses low. When you have one party claiming a domain name was stolen, and another party claiming it wasn't, the pragmatic thing for a registrar to do is to ask, "Who is likely to cause me more of a headache if I do/don't transfer the domain name?"

"Sounds like Afternic is in the same boat as Chris."

Okay, this is where I do the "Amazing Carnak" routine, put on my swami hat, and without looking at their web site, I am willing to bet that Afternic does NOT do what Hal alleges Chris did which put him in that boat - namely, warrant good title to the domain name.

Pause... surf.... click.... And the answer is:

http://www.afternic.com/agreement.php

YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL DOMAIN NAMES, DOMAIN NAME LISTINGS, AND BIDS, OFFERS AND COUNTER-OFFERS, OF ALL KINDS, ON THIS SITE ARE OWNED, POSTED AND TRANSFERRED BY MEMBERS; ARE NOT PROPERTY OF COMPANY AND COMPANY DOES NOT MONITOR, REVIEW, ENDORSE, SPONSOR, WARRANTY OR GUARANTEE SUCH LISTINGS IN ANY WAY WHATSOEVER FOR GOOD TITLE, TRADEMARK, OR ANY LEGAL VALIDITY OR CAPACITY. DOMAIN NAMES ARE SUBJECT TO TRADEMARK AND OTHER LAWS AND PRIOR TO YOUR PURCHASE OF ANY NAME, YOU SHOULD HIRE AN ATTORNEY TO PROPERLY PERFORM LEGAL DUE DILIGENCE ON THE NAME TO ENSURE YOUR LEGAL USE OF THE NAME.

Okay, now, they put it in BIG CAPITAL LETTERS so you wouldn't miss that part. Anyone who guarantees title in a transaction involving someone with whom they do not share turkey on the last Thursday in November had better have a big insurance policy.

Taking this a step further in the "who should be responsible for other people's problems" department, consider that Afternic actively participates in facilitating transfers among its members, and clearly disclaims liability for title defects. Compare that to a place like, oh, gee, I dunno, but some place which simply provides a discussion forum where people make trades among themselves, among other things.

[Anthony Ng]

It looks like that the on-going story of KS.com deserves a separate thread of its own, so I have split it from the original "secretary.com" saga. Please continue your discussion here. Thanks.

[toho]

Thanks jberryhill.


They specified a date.

I did mail several times before that.

They ignored it.

It was earlier for four days than the date which they specified, and they transfer away.

I didn't received any notification.

Their behavior is a disadvantage toward the client.

They didn't keep their promise.

Does this become somewhat effective interpretation legally?

Advise me.



**************** Today, I got mail from them ******

You did respond before November 25, 2003. However, you responded by
pointing me to a discussion list which had been debating whether or not the
domain name had been stolen. You were on that list prior to when you paid
the money for the domain. You thanked people for providing the information.
You said you would investigate the allegations. IF you investigated the
allegations, you made the wrong decision. I have very little sympathy for
you under the circumstances. Try to get your money from the hijacker from
whom you bought the domain. With information that the domain may have been
stolen, you should have taken more precautions to ensure that you could get
your money back. If you had no warning that the domain might have been
stolen, I would have made the claimant take the matter to court. But you
had warnings and chose to disregard them.

Martin Garthwaite
General Counsel
eNom, Inc.
2002 156th Avenue NE
Bellevue, WA 98007

*****************************************

[Spider]

I would say you need a lawyer Toho. Free message board assistance will not do you much good.

[jberryhill]

"Advise me."

I need some painting done in the hallway along the stairs in my house. Are you free this weekend?

"It was earlier for four days than the date which they specified, and they transfer away."

What are you talking about? They told you to respond before November 25 with evidence showing you were entitled to be the registrant of the domain name. You responded before November 25, and as Mr. Garthwaite quite rightly points out, you provided him with information showing that you had reason to suspect the domain name was stolen before you even paid for it.

They didn't "ignore" what you said. They *looked* at what you said. Heck, anyone can read the thread over at DS where you said you were glad you hadn't paid yet, because there was some reason to suspect the domain name was stolen.

"They didn't keep their promise."

What did they promise you?

They gave you a deadline to prove that you were the legitimate owner of the domain name. You responded prior to the deadline. When you responded, did you give them any reason to believe the domain name was NOT stolen? No, you didn't. So, they transferred the domain name.

They didn't promise you that, if you responded to them, that they'd wait until the 25th before transferring the domain name. They gave you *until* the 25th to respond and to show that the domain name was not stolen. They told you what they would do if you did *not* respond. You did respond, and you showed them that you had reason to suspect it *was* stolen. Now, after you responded, for what possible reason should they then have sat around waiting for the 25th to arrive?

Maybe you aren't clear on what they were saying. Try this:

"If you send me a dollar before December 1, I will poke Ari Goldberger in the eye with a sharp stick."

Okay, now, let's say you send me a dollar on November 27. From the moment I receive your dollar, I may then go poke Ari in the eye. I might even do it on November 28. But as soon as I get your dollar, I can go poke Ari in the eye.

Now, they told you that they would transfer the domain name if they did *NOT* hear from you by November 25. Once they heard from you, and you failed to provide them what they asked, then they did not have to wait around until November 25. That date was only relevant to a situation where you did not respond. Did you respond? Yes. So, the November 25 date became irrelevant to anything as soon as you responded.

I can't imagine what you want from Enom. They were under no obligation to contact you at all.

[namedropper]

More importantly, what enom counsel is trying to say is that if you have reason to believe something you buy is stolen and you go ahead anyway, it's your own damn fault. That's a particularly blunt but not at all unreasonable answer in my opinion.

[Banned: Delete]

tho im sorry to hear about this. I hope everything goes right for you. I myself have fell in this same situation. I suggest not using eNom since they are verising ass kissers. I had a similar situation come up with one of my domains with GoDaddy which was reportedly stolen. Godaddy WILL not take your domain without a court order. I suggest if you ever purchase a domain you are unsure about to go with godaddy. Nothing was proved with my dispute and I have retained my domain with godaddy. eNom will not follow these same rules they will simpley yank your domain unless you can prove something. With godaddy its the other way around.

[mole]

Originally posted by Delete
I suggest not using eNom since they are verising ass kissers.

Not sure I agree with that statement, delete. But I do acknowledge that GoDaddy's security is pretty commendable, tighter than eNom's in certain aspects eg instant email notifications the moment any changes are made to the whois.

I feel sorry for toho to have lost so much money because of this fiasco. Still trying to figure out why Afternic can't simply trace the payment to the bank account it was made to? After all, it was not eNom that made any big bucks in this instance, but Afternic who earned a hefty commission? Or am I just a clueless naive newbie who needs to understand the undercurrents of T&Cs better?

I am however grateful to the members here who share these things openly - at the very least, it reminds us all to be on our toenails re caveat emptor.

[Banned: legal]

a bunch of high profile domains were lifted from netsol it seems

and they were lifted by the original owners AGREEING to transfer them away

seems a con went on where netsol was targeted by people for having high yearly fees, so the con was the person calling the registrant would transfer the name away for a cheap fee

the con was the original owner doesn't read he is transferring like a sale to a new account instead of his account

that way the con can then move the domain to whatever registrar they want

one such case is in the courts right now

so do original owners have protection from being stupid and transferring away their interests with no compensation

It would be like the courts saying a third owner can claim title to a propert or car after a sale was made whenever, the owner just has to say I didn't know I was transferring title

So when the 'mistake' was made, it is probably gonna be the courts say tough luck to the original owner since he had to jump through hoops normally to get the name away from say netsol, transfers aren't easy

Now, in the case that netsol had a security breach (which they are known to have) then someone can take control of an account and do the transfers

In that case Netsol should have to eat it for having such lax security

I know of a case where someones test answers to their account was posted by someone at netsol to a public forum, so anyone could then use the answers to take control of their account

Netsol and the FBI did nothing when complaints were failed

So depending on how the name left netsol, either through a stupid registrant that actually approved it or via an account that was hijacked that allowed transfers, the end result is some case law will be coming soon that decides registrar's liablilities etc

On real estate you can buy title insurance, right now you can't yet for domains

Maybe that's an idea for a new industry?

Domain title insurance, hmmm