Lawyers: I have a question

[JuniperPark]

Could you draft a boilerplate domain purchase agreement for domain purchases that would give the seller a clear right to quickly recover a domain name if the buyer has made a purchase via fraudulant means (stolen credit card or phished PayPal account) or has filed a chargeback.

I (and vitually every other domain seller) am looking for something that would be "preapproved" by the larger registrars, so that I could just provide proof of payment failure and the recovery process begins.

Perhaps this would be a "service contract" that we could buy into, something like those 3rd party warranties you can buy for your car.

This would be a HUGE benefit to our industry and virtually stop most of the scam operations.

[stock_post]

The problem is the person's identity.
If you know the buyer it may not be an issue at all.

[mediawizard]

Sounds like a great idea but I'm not sure how practical this would be.

Would this also be enough for a registrar to hand back the domain without a lawsuit or at least some sort of court order?

I'm not a lawyer, just thought I'd post my views.

[JuniperPark]

The problem is the person's identity.
If you know the buyer it may not be an issue at all.

I don't understand this post.

I've sold over 2,000 domain names and never met a buy unless I met them later at conference. Even then, it wouldn't matter, if they make purchase with a stolen account I want the domain back.

[jberryhill]

The simple answer is no, but we might as well work through the obvious questions first:

so that I could just provide proof of payment failure

Could you please show me your proof that I didn't pay you $100 this afternoon?

I'd like to see that.

[LewR]

Could you draft a boilerplate domain purchase agreement for domain purchases that would give the seller a clear right to quickly recover a domain name if the buyer has made a purchase via fraudulant means (stolen credit card or phished PayPal account) or has filed a chargeback.

I (and vitually every other domain seller) am looking for something that would be "preapproved" by the larger registrars, so that I could just provide proof of payment failure and the recovery process begins.

Perhaps this would be a "service contract" that we could buy into, something like those 3rd party warranties you can buy for your car.

This would be a HUGE benefit to our industry and virtually stop most of the scam operations.

Isn't that why we hire folks who run escrow services?

[Tia Wood]

The simple answer is no, but we might as well work through the obvious questions first:



Could you please show me your proof that I didn't pay you $100 this afternoon?

I'd like to see that.

http://watchmojo.com/blogs/images/empty_wallet.jpg

[Gerry]

Could you please show me your proof that I didn't pay you $100 this afternoon?

Jeez, this really messed with my mind this early in the a.m.

[JuniperPark]

The simple answer is no, but we might as well work through the obvious questions first:



Could you please show me your proof that I didn't pay you $100 this afternoon?

I'd like to see that.

You misunderstood.

I do not give domains to a buy until AFTER I receive payment.

This idea kicks in only when, after the domain is delivered, a chargeback occurs or PayPal terminates the transaction because the account was stolen. So YES, I would be able to show you the PayPal or Visa notification of recalled payment.

Isn't that why we hire folks who run escrow services?

No.

Escrow services are completely useless to the seller. They will do absolutely nothing (except take the money back) on a chargeback.

[mediawizard]

Escrow services are completely useless to the seller. They will do absolutely nothing (except take the money back) on a chargeback.

This ever happened to you? I was under the assumption that escrow services are secure, why we even end up paying them.

What I'm told is that escrow services cannot protect you against buying stolen domains.

They do take time to ensure that the money is secure before they give you the go ahead to transfer the domain.

[JuniperPark]

This ever happened to you? I was under the assumption that escrow services are secure, why we even end up paying them.

What I'm told is that escrow services cannot protect you against buying stolen domains.

They do take time to ensure that the money is secure before they give you the go ahead to transfer the domain.

Yes, it has.

When a buy uses a credit card there is no way to hold the domain until any chance of chargeback has passed because that's at least a year, possibly more.

[jberryhill]

So YES, I would be able to show you the PayPal or Visa notification of recalled payment.

The problem is using a form of payment that can be reversed in the first place.

You can show me (the registrar) any number of things, but registrars are not about to get into the business of authenticating such things. What's in it for them?

[JuniperPark]

The problem is using a form of payment that can be reversed in the first place.

You can show me (the registrar) any number of things, but registrars are not about to get into the business of authenticating such things. What's in it for them?

Other than cash, any form of payment can be reversed... and anyone requiring cash is going to go out of business very, very quickly.

Registrars want us resellers to use them for our collective millions of domain names. I'm sure ALL resellers have been bitten by fraud in the past. So "What's in it for them" would be getting the business of being the registrar of a few million more domains. I've been asked by several registrars what it would take to get me to move to a different registrar, and this might be it for a lot of us.

[HuntingMoon]

we have recovered 2 domains with the assistance of our registrar. what's in it for the registrar is a happy customer btw.

[JuniperPark]

we have recovered 2 domains with the assistance of our registrar. what's in it for the registrar is a happy customer btw.

Great! Who was it?

[HuntingMoon]

sent you a pm with the details

[marcorandazza]

Dear Registrar,
Here's proof that I got screwed.
-Customer

Dear Customer,
What the hell do I care?
-Registrar

[JuniperPark]

Dear Registrar,
Here's proof that I got screwed.
-Customer

Dear Customer,
What the hell do I care?
-Registrar

Dear Registrar:

Because I've personally spent over $500,000 with you over the past few years - check with your accounting department. I'm sure another company will be happy to have my business since you "don't care".

Enjoy explaining this to your boss, and good like trying to find a new job if he decides he doesn't need someone sending long-term customers to the competition.

- Former Customer

[Dave Zan]

Would this also be enough for a registrar to hand back the domain without a lawsuit or at least some sort of court order?

That really depends on the registrar, depending on the potential gains/risks in
doing so or not. Even if a lawyer writes a supposedly bullet-proof agreement,
a registrar is not required to accept that to validate the person's claims.

The judge might and, say, order the registrar to transfer it to them after. But
you know how much time, money and effort that can entail.

Now, Juniper has rather a point that the registrar stands to lose a customer if
they don't accept that, especially if that customer has been giving them a lot
of business. Maybe the registrar can't afford that, maybe they can.

For the registrar, they must invest some time and manpower into validating a
third party or customer's complaint. Some pan out while others don't, but how
will the registrar so-called recoup its lost time and effort into investigating the
ones that turn out dud?

(Then again, don't some of us want to be compensated for all time and effort
spent into something for someone else that doesn't work out? Good for you if
it's out of the goodness of your heart, but we still need to put food on table.)

Too bad for the registrar if they choose not to accomodate Juniper, and then
he takes his remaining business elsewhere. If the registrar, coincidentally, has
a customer who's about to give them their business and compensate for that
loss, then it's no big deal for them.

OTOH, if Juniper goes with a registrar who might not accomodate him if such
a similar thing happens, and if the registrar doesn't find it worthwhile to help,
then Juniper's supposed bad luck continues on. BOHICA.

All in all, it's a frustrating stalemate with little to no immediate resolution. It's
going to take a while to work out the devil in the details.

Say, HuntingMoon, as in for this exact sort of thing? May I know also?

[jberryhill]

The OP was directed to the question of providing a "boilerplate agreement" that a registrar would accept.

This sort of arrangement can only be done with the active cooperation and agreement in advance by the registrar.

Yes, many registrars go out of their way to help resolve disputes, but that's ordinarily on a voluntary basis.

Moniker already provides a registrar-controlled escrow service which, unlike escrow.com, manages transfer of the payment and the domain.

However, if the buyer transfers the domain name to another registrar, the original registrar isn't going to get that domain name back, and if your buyer is a scammer then they are not going to move the domain name to a registrar that is in on the program.