PayPal effectively says: Don't use us" - definitive reply

[reclad]

Having acquired domains on and off since 1993, I've recently decided to sell
a few things, and thought I'd write to PayPal asking ".. how can I protect
myself against chargebacks after the domain(s) have been transferred..."

This is the relevant part of the reply I received from PayPal:

"Dear xxxxxx,

Thank you for contacting PayPal.

Unfortunately with virtual or intangible items there is no way for us to
prove delivery. Even if you waited 45 days (the time in which a claim
has to be filed with PayPal) before you transferred the domain the buyer
could still go to their credit card or bank and dispute the charge.
Most credit cards will allow their customer to dispute charges up to 180
after the charge is made. If you can find a way to make your
transaction qualify for our seller protection program would be the only
way to protect yourself. ... "

....................

So, if we use PayPal, it's basically scammer heaven. Confirmed.

I sort of hoped that they would tell me of some option for being paid
that precluded the buyer using a credit card or bank, just cash in hand,
with no option of chargeback, but apparently that doesn't exist.

Cheers.

[jberryhill]

Wire transfer.

Western Union.

[reclad]

Forgot to mention.

I am aware of the superb post by pcproffenno on MassPay.

However, I was looking for a solution for buyers that don't have a Premier PayPal
account. Still, interesting that the PayPal rep. didn't allude to the fact that MassPay
doesn't allow Credit Card or Bank payment funding, only cash on hand.

Originally Posted by jberryhill

Wire transfer.
Western Union.

Yes, WU wire transfer is another way of sending money
.. but
I must be slow, help me out, your post is too cryptic for me....
What are you saying regarding PayPal ?

[Raider]

Originally Posted by reclad

So, if we use PayPal, it's basically scammer heaven. Confirmed.

As long as you DONT use Paypal for virtual items, you WONT be scammed.

You need to realize the problem with chargebacks is NOT with Paypal, They are a 3rd party processor (the middle man) and recieve chargebacks from Visa, Mastercard and American Express, I see NO reason why Paypal should eat the chargeback, do you?

[Bender]

moneybookers.
they do not pass the chargebacks onto their customers (sellers are protected)

[tekz999]

Sedo escrow is the best.

[serge20]

i am trying something new, i tell the buyer to create a project on getafreelancer and then send me money from their , i might loose 10 % off the total deal, but at least i know i won't get scammed. But the nice part about it, is that when i want to withdraw the money, i can either send them to paypal, moneybookers or my payoneer card.

[Ptune]

I've been scammed by someone on here. I pm the person to send me another payment. he contacted paypal and ask them to return his money and paypal returned the funds and I don't have my domain back. I already transferred my domain into his account. I can I get my domain back?

Originally Posted by tekz999

Sedo escrow is the best.

From now on...I'm going to transfer my domains with escrow. Screw paypal!

[Ehsan]

I would have to say second best option is Moneybookers !

[Ptune]

This is really upsetting to me that paypal would refund someone back their money, after the person has already sent it. I remember when I accidentally sent money to another paypal account, I contacted paypal and they said they couldn't do anything about refunding my money back. Double standard? what if the domain is worth money? how can I claim my domain back without having to pay thousands of dollars to a lawyer?

[Domagon]

Key is to be paid in non-revocable funds - John stated two examples of those; western union (after pickup) and bank wire.

PayPal is reversible.

Making matters worse is that PayPal is a very shady outfit.

Though to their credit, the PayPal rep who replied to you was straightup - what he wrote is accurate.

With that said, PayPal is generally fine for low dollar transactions with trusted buyers.

Key word being "trusted". It's important to be aware that if any PayPal funds in the chain turns out to be bogus, PayPal will sometimes attempt to recover the loss from legitimate transactions using some very sketchy methods.

Ie. Person A steals a credit card, hacks another account, etc ... Then person A pays person B (who is unaware of the stolen funds), person B then later pays person C ... but sometime later PayPal discovers the funds are bad, then they may attempt to get the funds back from person C (withdraw to bank acct is usually the trigger for the clawback to begin) even though they have absolutely no connection to / knowledge of person A.

PayPal is best avoided, especially now that they appear to be imploding - and this is being openly discussed on PayPal's own forum at Ebay (they own PayPal).

As far as alternatives ... escrow, as others have already mentioned, provide much security to both buyer/seller while still offering convenience. Escrow.com is very fast.

Ron

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Domagon

Escrow.com is very fast.

And expensive for low priced domains, which IMO is the majority of the market.

[Ptune]

How safe and reliable is Escrow? I've done some business with escrow and I never had any problems, but since I've been scam by someone through paypal, I'm skeptical about selling some of my domains.

[trader]

Originally Posted by reclad

....Most credit cards will allow their customer to dispute charges up to 180 says after the charge is made.

Actually the time period with some credit cards is more than 6-months. I once had a bank charge back (non-domain related) more than one year after the purchase. In fact, it was a full 13-months.

[thevirtual]

I agree Paypal is not even attempting to create a way for safer transactions for digital goods. Maybe there isn't enough profit in it for them

The only solution I think would be to include a tangible product in domain sales and send in mail. Not sure if thats possible though

[thedomainster]

I was told the same thing when speaking with PayPal on the phone, the rep actually said "PayPal is not recommended for intangible or electronic delivery items.", which doesn't make any sense...

PayPal probably receives millions of dollars in fees from GoDaddy domain and hosting payments alone! If their service isn't for "intangible" goods then why do they actively partner with "intangible" product sellers? What they are saying is that they want you to use them for these items, but they don't want to get involved if anything goes wrong...

[bd77]

If you do a transaction thru Paypal always use a debit/check card. I had a problem on a another forum were I purchased a domain name and never received it so I contacted my bank(Bank of America) and filed a claim against Paypal. Paypal's TOS concerning virtual goods is not honored by my bank so I got my money in 5 days.

The moral of the story is when using Paypal to purchase a domain name always use a debit/check card. It worked for me.

[bgmv]

Paypal is garbage. They will try to screw you every which way possible and then some more. I just had 20 LLLL.com stolen from me, due to a PayPal chargeback and hacked account. I wrote an article on digg if anyone wants to check it out:
http://digg.com/tech_news/Paypal_and...MERS_I_D_THEFT

Originally Posted by thevirtual

I agree Paypal is not even attempting to create a way for safer transactions for digital goods. Maybe there isn't enough profit in it for them

The only solution I think would be to include a tangible product in domain sales and send in mail. Not sure if thats possible though

It is possible. You can send the buyer a PAPER instruction on how to acquire the domain and the transfer steps required, this would imply that the buyer is paying for that piece of paper, making it tangbile. Just make sure that you have delivery confirmation

[touchring]

Originally Posted by bgmv

Paypal is garbage. They will try to screw you every which way possible and then some more. I just had 20 LLLL.com stolen from me, due to a PayPal chargeback and hacked account. I wrote an article on digg if anyone wants to check it out:
http://digg.com/tech_news/Paypal_and...MERS_I_D_THEFT


It is possible. You can send the buyer a PAPER instruction on how to acquire the domain and the transfer steps required, this would imply that the buyer is paying for that piece of paper, making it tangbile. Just make sure that you have delivery confirmation

wow, why not use escrow and wire transfer instead?

[NostraDomainus]

Something I find odd about PayPal is that eBay also runs StubHub.com and won't allow buyers to use it, just allow sellers to recieve fund via PayPal.

Why wouldn't they use their own payment system for buyers with another of their own businesses?
[Too many chargebacks maybe? ...which could destabilize their integrity to provide a safe place for sellers to hock their stubs? ...or worse, lose them money??]

There could be a good reason, which I never inquired about, as I am no expert and not that motivated atm - but just seems odd to we as I read over this thread and think about the StubHub scenerio.

In the end, I use Sedo for medium & large domain sales (and build the 10% commission into my advertised/negotiated price- just to make it easier on the buyer and not bog them down with me saying: Btw, U have to pay 10% for sedo fees);
...and PayPal just for small sales with buyers I feel comfortable won't scam me.

So far so good, with minimal loses to my bottom line.

Best Success in All Your Endeavours!