Why fraudsters will never win

[Donny Simonton]

I remember the first time I ever parked a domain, I created my account at home and the next day I needed to buy something so I searched from my domain clicked out and actually bought something. The next day my account was closed. Was that fraud or a provider just being a little crazy about their rules? It's really up to the provider, but I broke their rule so it wasn't really fraud. But I learned my lesson because of being terminated, that $0.10 was really important to me 5 years ago.

Today, I know of about 100 different ways that I could have hidden that click out to the advertisers, and instead of making $0.10, I could be making $50,000 a week. But one day my world would have fallen in on me when some parking company figured out how to stop me. So instead of $5,000 a month doing it the right way, I'm making $0.00 and hoping one of the parking companies/providers/advertisers doesn't file charges against me.

Parking companies are getting smarter, they have whole teams of people dedicated to watching and detecting fraud. Some shut you down immediately, some just like to be voyeurs for a while and see how far you will really go. But they are all learning. We have already figured out how to detect all of the people who are using some of the automated bots to click out. And we have figured out about 100 other ways that people cheat everyday.

Everyday we shut down about 100 accounts, in most cases it's probably about 10 - 20 people in total. But they get greedy and one of our radars goes off and bam, they are all gone. The other things that helps is every one of our account managers reports fraud, our ceo even looks for fraud, I look for fraud, we have a dedicated fraud team, and we have all kinds of automated programs to detect different changes in accounts. And you can't forget that having spies in all of the big message boards across the world always helps. So in a nutshell, if you cheat, I will catch you.

As I have mentioned before, we are about to start sharing our termination data with other partners which will include signup data, login data, and all domains. This means that you will not only be terminated with us, but with all providers.

If most of the people committing fraud spent that same time doing stuff the right way they would probably be rich!

Donny

[fatter]

I have heard of parking companies sharing info on fraud accounts I just hope you guys are sure before doing it so as not to take down legitimate people

[Ian]

sharing fraud info sounds tough and will surely bring a sense of professionalism into the domain business. but i hope this is not another spying gesture into your clients personal data. Of course i support ethical business practices.

[9888]

Well said, and good on all of you at parked.com and the other providers that are putting effort into this!
Cheers.

[LucidPhoenix]

Fraud hurts all of us. From the giants at Google to the small fries like us.

[Banned: ondera]

I remember the first time I ever parked a domain, I created my account at home and the next day I needed to buy something so I searched from my domain clicked out and actually bought something. The next day my account was closed. Was that fraud or a provider just being a little crazy about their rules? It's really up to the provider, but I broke their rule so it wasn't really fraud. But I learned my lesson because of being terminated, that $0.10 was really important to me 5 years ago.

Today, I know of about 100 different ways that I could have hidden that click out to the advertisers, and instead of making $0.10, I could be making $50,000 a week. But one day my world would have fallen in on me when some parking company figured out how to stop me. So instead of $5,000 a month doing it the right way, I'm making $0.00 and hoping one of the parking companies/providers/advertisers doesn't file charges against me.

Parking companies are getting smarter, they have whole teams of people dedicated to watching and detecting fraud. Some shut you down immediately, some just like to be voyeurs for a while and see how far you will really go. But they are all learning. We have already figured out how to detect all of the people who are using some of the automated bots to click out. And we have figured out about 100 other ways that people cheat everyday.

Everyday we shut down about 100 accounts, in most cases it's probably about 10 - 20 people in total. But they get greedy and one of our radars goes off and bam, they are all gone. The other things that helps is every one of our account managers reports fraud, our ceo even looks for fraud, I look for fraud, we have a dedicated fraud team, and we have all kinds of automated programs to detect different changes in accounts. And you can't forget that having spies in all of the big message boards across the world always helps. So in a nutshell, if you cheat, I will catch you.

As I have mentioned before, we are about to start sharing our termination data with other partners which will include signup data, login data, and all domains. This means that you will not only be terminated with us, but with all providers.

If most of the people committing fraud spent that same time doing stuff the right way they would probably be rich!

Donny

Parked (or yahoo) suspend accounts without reason, if a web site have bad traffic why do not you suspend account within 1-2 days? why do you wait for 20 days? anyway, i think yahoo is request suspend accounts,

My account is suspended in goldkey (they are partner of yahoo)

sedo is not suspend my account for same domains, because they are not partner of yahoo sucks.

by the way,



heh

[namestrands]

Donsimon, I am sure your intentions are good but I have to say you really need to consider things before you post comments like this.

As now you have just given more information to fraudsters to be more careful when sharing their details and encouraging them to use fake information your comments at times really are arrogant and wreckless.

Flipside what you are suggesting is in breach of data protection laws of most countries, including the UK, Canada, Germany, Australia to mention just a few , while we live in a non-utopian world believe it or not everyone has the basic right to privacy whether guilty of a crime or not.

Two wrongs do not make a right, and what you are suggesting is not only Immoral, but actually illegal. What sort of message are you sending that its ok for you to break the law?

I really am disgusted at reading this thread, I have seen parking programs do some low things, but this really does top the lot.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

I understand your frustration, but take a note out of the other parking programs, and have an ounce of professionalism and think before you post.

Fraud hurts us all, I agree but sometimes you get it wrong.

[GeorgeK]

Keep up the good work, Donny.

[Banned: VioxxLawyers]

Keep the good work, as an advertiser i appreciate what you are doing against click fraud.

[namestrands]

Can you please close my account and remove all my domains from your database any revenue that is in my account please donate to a charity of your choice.

I really do not want any part of your crusade. While I totally agree that something has to be done about click fraud I find your contempt some what aggressive and immoral.

Their are ways to address these situations, but your openness that you will break the law yourselves to make a point really is the pot calling the kettle black.

You should lead by example, not lower yourself to that of the people who are commiting the fraud against you or your provider. Its what one would call double standards.

Please also consider that any fraudster may sell on their domains in the event of them being blacklisted, just spare a moment for the person who buys those domains; how would you know the difference, in one fail swoop you would start to devalue the very market you are trying to promote. Honest people should not have to suffer at the hands of your company.

As I said I believe your intentions are genuine, but your rhetoric really lets you down.

I wish your company every success.

[Donny Simonton]

Namestrands,
First I understand where you are coming from. But you also need to understand that I am trying to protect our business, the business of the providers and the advertisers. When I can cut down on my fraud rate, that keeps everybody happy except for the people committing the fraud. And in turn everybody makes more money because the price per click goes up.

My post last night was after reading a topic about us shutting down somebody and I explained to them that it wasn't me it was because they were shut down at another provider. And then the information was past to me and I was told to shut them down. I didn't see anything he was doing wrong, but that didn't matter to him as he cursed me out in PM's and even told me to prepare to be attacked.

But my post was not about him he was just annoyed as was I. My post was about the 10 or so fraud gangs who read this message board daily.

Let me explain why I am not breaking the law and trust me I know international law very well. We send traffic to company A for person B. Company A then tells me they don't want traffic from person B anymore. Company A then blocks traffic from person B, whether it be by ip, domain, or phone number. I've already talked to somebody who knows the privacy laws very well in the EU and they agreed that there isn't a problem here. As long as I don't post that person B is committing fraud (in my eyes).

And yes I am aware of the problems with buying domains that have been blacklisted or terminated. I deal with those everyday. But you must also be aware that person B who is terminated today comes back tomorrow and says I just bought that domain on dnforum. I can't just tell them sorry, I have to learn to trust them.

Donny

[namestrands]

I totally get that you are frustrated; I know other parking programs that have gone through the same situation and still do each and every day. But my issue is that you should not resort to breaking the law, you said that you would release information to all providers including sign up information, now I know categorically that information that shows the identity of an individual without consent of that individual is in breach of data protection law.

I totally understand that you should inform Yahoo of the domains of anyone that has been proven beyond a doubt to be commiting acts of fraud, thats fine and it really should end their. Sharing of personal information, like contact details or bank details really is unacceptable without proper consideration of data protection laws.

However getting the domains banned will cause some serious issues in the future for the person buying them, which is unfair.

My problem is that innocent individuals should not have to further suffer from click fraud by you adding to the problem, you have to find a balance and I am sure their are a 100 more suitable ways to protect your assets, and one would be to stop twice monthly payments unless you are an approved member.

Gung Ho posts help no-one and it serves only to benefit the fraudsters.

If I had my way I would chop the hands off them... all I am saying is that give consideration to the decent domainers and know that their is more than one way to skin a cat.

[Donny Simonton]

Yesterday I was frustrated, today, now it's just starting to get funny. I go from venting about how fraud sucks, how it could shut down this business we all love, and ways to stop the fraudsters To now I'm talking about privacy laws with somebody who shouldn't care, because he doesn't commit fraud. But the laws have already been addressed, so you shouldn't have to worry about it.

When buying a domain what's the first things you do, check to see it if will work within your scheme to make your money back and start making a profit. Now you just have to start checking a little harder. When I bought a $30,000 car domain 6 months ago, how did I know that both Yahoo and Google wouldn't want it? They both wanted it 2 weeks before. When buying a domain, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. And I bet I have more losers than most domain registrars even have registered. But as more trademark lawsuits happen, Yahoo and Google will get stricter and stricter until trademarks will not be usable anymore. We have already seen this with certain adult terms with both Yahoo and Google.

I would never share bank details with anybody.

Maybe we can charge people $5.00 a month then we can be like GoDaddy? Paying twice a month sets us apart, but does bring more fraud our way than most companies. Or at least we think so. But it also requires us to have better systems that find fraudulent activities.

namestrands - I am not after you. I am not after somebody who makes an honest mistake. I am after the fraud gangs and some of the other large cheaters. The people who get terminated today and create 5 other accounts tomorrow and do the same thing that got them terminated the first time. If these guys are stopped, I would bet 90% of all fraud in the PPC market would go away.

And I'm going to do what I can do and what is legal to stop them when I can.

Donny

[Dorin]

I am not a customer of parked.com. When I read this post, I am really surprised with this word. "My post was about the 10 or so fraud gangs who read this message board daily", It seems all people read this message board are fraud gangs or potential gangs from your words. Should I never read this post?

[Donny Simonton]

I have a tendency to not read my posts before I post them so sometimes my mind is on sentence 3 when my hands are on paragraph 5. That sentence makes sense to me. But to phrase it better it should have read:

"My post was about the 10 or so fraud gangs. Which frequent this message board daily."

Donny

[LucidPhoenix]

Namestrand, you are merely a professional crybaby. I have yet to see any positive posts about anything. Every parking company is a "thief", you do not want to go on a "crusade", WTF is up with that?

You type out these long inane posts, which I cannot even get past the first paragraph without laughing.

Take a chill pill dude. You are the Ralf Nader of Domineers. Keep up the good work, we all need comedy relief from time to time!

[David G]

...But as more trademark lawsuits happen, Yahoo and Google will get stricter and stricter until trademarks will not be usable anymore.

The buyer of the seriouslly trademarked name wwwrealtor.com for 21k in the top of this weeks DNJournal.com certainly did not seem worried about that :redface:

[namestrands]

Namestrand, You are the Ralf Nader of Domineers. Keep up the good work, we all need comedy relief from time to time!

I like to think myself more as an Michael Moore than a Ralph, but thanks anyway, LucidPhoeni, I am happy that I keep the noobs entertained.


Donny, if you ever had the unfortunate experience of being a victim of Identity theft then I am sure you can understand that mistakes happen and the need for privacy and that incorrect information can cost the livelyhood of an individual. I salute you on your stance on click fraud, all parking programs have similar systems in place and they are all getting tougher with zero tolerance policies in place, however in spite of that click fraud is still rising, and its not just the people trying to make money. Its advertisers themselves clicking on other advertisers adverts.

You are a new program and people will try, especially if they have been banned from all other programs. Click Fraud is a career for some and they will find more entertaining ways to abuse the system.

Now if all the parking programs were to share a database of domains that were involved in click fraud/malware or some other suspect methods by way of a shared database that would serve as a warning flag for all the programs then that would be constructive. However the respective programs should only use this to flag potential issues.

Click Fraud is a big issue to you, Privacy is a big issue to me.

[LucidPhoenix]

I like to think myself more as an Michael Moore than a Ralph, but thanks anyway, LucidPhoeni, I am happy that I keep the noobs entertained.

Michael Moore is a propagandist who is more concerned about making money. Nader is a true activist. Just my 2 cents.

[jimbaggs]

Now if all the parking programs were to share a database of domains that were involved in click fraud/malware or some other suspect methods by way of a shared database that would serve as a warning flag for all the programs then that would be constructive. However the respective programs should only use this to flag potential issues.

Click Fraud is a big issue to you, Privacy is a big issue to me.

I commend Donny's efforts to stamp out fraud! But I have to say that the greatest burden for eliminating this problem lies not with the parking companies, not with GooHoo, not with the advertisers, but instead lies right here with us.

We domainers, as a group, should do everything in our power to make fraudsters lives miserable. Why? Because the persons most damaged by CF are the honest domain owners. Its not only that as a group our reputation suffers but every dollar that gets taken by a fraudster is a dollar that should have found its way into the pocket of a non-fraudster. Its easy to see how.

If there is 15% fraud in the PPC market then conversion rates are going to be 15% lower. So advertisers will eventually bid 15% less than what they would if there were no CF. That means that if CF were eliminated every one of us would be getting 15% more money every month. For every 1% of fraud that gets stopped each one of us will see a 1% increase in our overall earnings. Its as simple as that. Want to earn more money? Knock off a CF'r.

GooHoo doesn't care enough about this problem to go all out in eliminating it because in the end they don't really suffer that much. Of course they will take whatever reasonable measure they can. But in the end they don't directly suffer the loss. They get paid just as well on undetected CF clicks as they do honest ones. And if they have to "refund" a few million bucks here or there its no big deal because they money will almost certainly be respent on PPC. In the very long term CF does a bit of damage to the market's reputation as a whole but its a difficult calculation to quantify and so its a loss thats pretty much "off the books".

I do have to agree with Namestrands that blacklists and other measures shouldn't be automatic. We don't want to harm innocent people. At the same time we can't afford to continue allowing CFrs to run amok stealing from US.