It's renewal time, What are you doing with your .Mobi's?

[katherine]

...
When a name is registered in ALL gTLDs and MANY ccTLDs, that obviously means good demand. And you know what, DEMAND and SUPPLY determine PRICE. (Econ 101) So if you can't even get that, I have nothing more to say.

Provided that the name is developed in these TLDs. It's not uncommon to see certain names taken in a myriad of TLDs but most are just parked lol Then there is more speculation than actual demand.

[Anthony Ng]

Then there is more speculation than actual demand.

Speculation IS demand.

[Gerry]

Because that's when .mobi just started, right after landrush. I thought it was obvious. Yes, I must admit I was stupid to even think it's worth something back then, partly because I buy in the bright future of mobile browsing (which I still do, just NOT with .mobi).

To be honest, it's really difficult to follow your "argument" because you apparently didn't even get my points.

When a name is registered in ALL gTLDs and MANY ccTLDs, that obviously means good demand. And you know what, DEMAND and SUPPLY determine PRICE. (Econ 101) So if you can't even get that, I have nothing more to say.

So for such a name, one would guess it's worth some investment in the new .mobi. I was wrong. I came to learn that very few websites actually use .mobi as a brand.

And the wheels of TLD development is gearing up, soon it will be buried in the sea of countless .mob if not .m. It's unfortunate for .mobi, perhaps it's a wrong dot (TLD) at a wrong time.

People are still not ready for that. Time will tell, so there's really no need for argument; just take a look at .biz, .info and .us.

Very much like I don't buy into .CA domains, because there are TLDs that simply don't make it, or at least too slow for now.

Goodbye .mobi, hello .m, or m. or whatever.

Why am I babbling in such an extended, disorganized manner? It must be infectious. Damn it. LOL!

I get your points very precisely.

My clarification points demonstrate that the logic you use to determine the worthiness of something does not work.

Here is an actual live example right now:

The following domains are at auction right now.
Each are registered in 6 extensions.
Which ones do you want?

zachatown.com
yourheartalert.com
wl-2.com
whenbankscompete.com

Again, the question:

Because these were dropped are they worthless?
Because they are regged in 6 extension (not counting ccTLD's) are they not valuable?
Because of your Econ 101 lecture, should you be bidding on these?

Next scenario.
These are regged in 6 extensions.
These are available RIGHT NOW at reg fee:

SturgisGoDaddyGirlSux.com
NeogenBucks.com
SleepsSix.com
CockJugglers.net
SiteSeconde.net
calstrat.net

Shouldn't you reg these?
These were dropped by someone just like you dropped your mobi.
Then are these not in the same class?

Because your argument for mobi being worthless was:

I let a .mobi go last year. The name has long been taken in EVERY gTLD as well as MANY ccTLDs. Guess what, that .mobi is still available TODAY.

But now you want to say that same argument DOES NOT apply towards anything other than a mobi.

I agree. The points are difficult to follow. Your points, that is - especially your logic for determining the worth, the worthiness, the value, the success.

You first want to discuss it is available therefore it sucks.

Then you want to attempt to school me in supply and demand as being the rationale for the success.

Lets admit. Those names above suck. Yet some have decent age, all are taken in every extension (I have not validated the list). It is the name - the words - that suck. Not the extension.

You will not admit that the name you selected for a .mobi sucked. It perhaps does not even relate well to a mobile environment or a mobile web. In other words, it does not fit the extension.

So your argument about something being worthless because

you had it
you dropped it
it is still available
therefore it is worthless

is full of holes based on the above criteria that YOU defined:

I let a .mobi go last year.
The name has long been taken in EVERY gTLD as well as MANY ccTLDs.
Guess what, that .mobi is still available TODAY.

You can not apply your principles and logic to measure one extension's worthiness and not use that same principle and logic to define ALL extensions.

It does not matter that the names suck to begin with and should never have been regged to begin with. That is not the issue, according to you.

Otherwise, you SHOULD be regging all those names above right now to prove your point that your logic and principles DO NOT apply to .com, .net, .info, .org and others.

Remember your Economics 101 lecture regarding supply and demand? Obviously, there is the demand on all the above to have been regged.

And now you have your chance to add to that dwindling supply by regging those names above.

Hurry before someone else reads your supply, demand, all other ccTLD's taken lectures and gets them before you.


Remember, these are your words to define the validity, worthiness, value, and success of a domain extension.

Those framed quotes are your words, not mine.

[katherine]

Speculation IS demand.

OK OK but if the market is dominated by resellers instead of end users it's a sign the market is not that healthy.
We all know resellers are usually not going to pay top dollar for domains.

Speculation example: the LLL buyout in extensions like .mobi .biz .info (.us too) is artificial (sustained by domainers) but the speculation (aka 'demand') is not driving prices up.
There is no point in renewing names that have a negative ROI. When I said negative cash flow of course it means you spend more in renewals than you earn in domains sales, development and parking revenue.

[Gerry]

OK OK but if the market is dominated by resellers instead of end users it's a sign the market is not that healthy.
We all know resellers are usually not going to pay top dollar for domains.

Speculation example: the LLL buyout in extensions like .mobi .biz .info (.us too) is artificial (sustained by domainers) but the speculation (aka 'demand') is not driving prices up.
There is no point in renewing names that have a negative ROI. When I said negative cash flow of course it means you spend more in renewals than you earn in domains sales, development and parking revenue.

I fell out of my seat!

Someone "gets it"

A zero supply does not equate to demand if the names are being horded.

By some estimates, 42 million .com and .net are nothing more than parked.

This my, friend nameslave, is why Economics 101 is 100% bunk in domaining. The supply and the demand can be artificially inflated by domainers.

If you want a true life example, look at the silver market being horded by the Hunt brothers to decrease the supply of silver thereby increasing the prices. The demand was moderate by some standards but the market for silver plummeted when ordered to liquidate.

The same is true with oil prices hitting $150 a barrell. The supply was available but the percieved demand was artificially inflated by speculators. This is why oil went well over $5.00 per gallon. But, once the "perception" of demand was hit with the "reality" of supplies then oil prices came tumbling down to less than $1.50 earlier in the year.

The issue here is domainers are attempted to corner a market by buying up names in hopes of controlling the supply thereby increasing demand.

NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!

Why?

Because industry, countries, people are not playing that game. There is the occasional exception to the rules.

What is happening right now in the domain market? Why are there over 270 extensions? why are IDN's being released? Why are new TLD's being released?

Because THAT is where CONSUMERS have placed the DEMANDS of the market.

Domainers had NOTHING to with this WITH THE EXCEPTION they helped CREATE these new markets by HORDING domains. Thus the term CYBERSQUATTING.

Other factors include language, national identity, heritage and pride regarding IDN's. Some factors influencing new TLD's are simply identity and the concept of using the BRAND as the NAME.

To me it is exciting NOT FROM A DOMAINER's POINT but from a consumer point. It will further add to the identity and branding of a PRODUCT, PLACE, PERSON, or PERCEPTION.

Domainers DO NOT CONTROL the internet and DO NOT CONTROL the future and the fate of the internet.

Domainers only control AN INDIVIDUAL PORTFOLIO and their PERCEIVED VALUE of their own names.

GLOBAL CONSUMERS do not care what domains are being held and in what extension. All they care about is finding the product, place, or service that they need. They use NOT WHAT THEY ARE USED TO but what has been successfully promoted and branded into their consciousness. Next up will be IDN's that will further distance itself from any perceived notion of business as usual. Even more so than ccTLD's alone, IDN's will further isolate countries and peoples to use that which is new to them and has BIGGER meaning to them than a .com. Think India (Hindi) and China (Mandarin, Chinese) each country with over a billion people. Suddenly the WESTERN way and the DOT COM will decrease in usage to these people. YES, .com will remain but will DECREASE in usage thereby decreasing in value.

Now if people (aka domainers) can not recognize this concept and how it relates to the proposed .music, .sport, .nyc and the increased usage of .fm, .travel, .me - suddenly a domain is not just about connecting to the internet but how one connects to THEIR INTERESTS AND THEIR BRANDS.

ANY increase in usage by ANY other domain extension is a DECREASE in usage of an existing domain. FORGET ECONOMICS ONE-OOO-ONE (didn't GM, Chysler, FORD teach us this?), think REAL ESTATE 101

Location
Location
Location

An internet extension, a URL, any domain represents AN ADDRESS. Nothing more. It is their MAP of how to get to where they want to go on the Internet.

Honestly? Keep your eyes open. This is going to happen and it is going to happen in one huge swoop that it will take many people off their feet.

Buy into all the new extensions? Hell no.

The only .me I bought is my last name to use as an email for my family and the only .tel I bought is to match a charitable thing my wife and I are into.

So, why .mobi?

Look at the infinite number of ways ALREADY that people can connect to the internet. Then look at the INFINITE number of ways people connect to the mobile internet. I say INFINITE because perhaps the only thing we can agree on in this thread is there is no ONE STANDARD established to connect to the mobile space.

Look at what we have already. It is a mess.

Look what is getting ready to happen with all these new releases of IDN and TLD's. Mass confusion, chaos and an INFINITE ADDITIONAL number of ways to not only connect with the internet but with mobile.

YES, iphone and itouch are great. BUT, the iPhone is less than 20% of the market. New technology with other devices are coming and will catch up.

BUT, IDN's and new TLD's are not waiting for TECHNO to catch up with ALL CONSUMERS! The flood of names, places, brands, etc is going to take place first. Other wise, you are going to have to wait until every person (6.5 billion) on earth have a smart phone like iPhone that can surf the web in any standard. Currently there are 4.5 billion global mobile phone subscribers in the world.

Do we tell China, Japan, India, Russia, Spain, New York City, Berlin, etc that we have to wait for the other 80-85% of the world's inhabitants get their shit together and buy a real mobile phone?

Nope.

So with all this chaos, what CURRENTLY (it has to be current because the flood is about to happen and the technology in a person's hand is not) what current extension is going to be branded and is set to be the STANDARD RIGHT NOW to ensure TRUST THAT THIS SITE WILL WORK ON EVERY WEB ENABLED MOBILE DEVICE?

It is all about the consumer, it is all about branding, it is all about place.

It is not about domainers.

[mjnels]

Doc I promise to read this post once i get a free 2 hours or so..

[Gerry]

Doc I promise to read this post once i get a free 2 hours or so..

Wait for the podcast.

Sunday preachin!

[Anthony Ng]

... A zero supply does not equate to demand if the names are being horded.

By some estimates, 42 million .com and .net are nothing more than parked.

This my, friend nameslave, is why Economics 101 is 100% bunk in domaining. The supply and the demand can be artificially inflated by domainers ...

Sorry to say, but judging from your long but incoherent post, isn't it obvious that you don't quite understand demand and supply well enough.

I remember when some "smart" people bought up the remaining 3-letter .biz and .us, prices DID go up a bit. But when demand fails to feed, it's now back to square one. More amazingly, some even TRIED to pull the same stunt on 4-letter .com; but I couldn't even wish them good luck.

In other words, there's simply no way to manipulate a near perfect market (as in .com), where few would be resourceful but dumb enough to try play God's Hand, and the "group buy" strategy doesn't work.

When a speculator buys a domain (either as new registration or from the aftermarket), it IS demand. There really is not a clear line between end-users and speculators. I have "investors" paying 4 - 5 figures and end-users sub-hundred.

"Zero supply" of course does not equal demand, but the buyout effort which made it so does. As long as those speculators keep renewing, there is a demand. The same is true for those 42 millions .com and .net (if your numbers are correct): people are willing to spend more than $250 million dollars on domain registration, and you don't call it demand?!

That Econ 101 rule (of demand and supply) OF COURSE works for domain names. The thing is whether you truly understand how it works ... or not.

[mjnels]

exactly... i've sold almost exclusively to other speculators.. it is a form of demand even if short lived in some areas. the cashier at the grocery store never tells me she wont accept my money because its speculator cash.

[Gerry]

Sorry to say, but judging from your long but incoherent post, isn't it obvious that you don't quite understand demand and supply well enough.

I remember when some "smart" people bought up the remaining 3-letter .biz and .us, prices DID go up a bit. But when demand fails to feed, it's now back to square one. More amazingly, some even TRIED to pull the same stunt on 4-letter .com; but I couldn't even wish them good luck.

In other words, there's simply no way to manipulate a near perfect market (as in .com), where few would be resourceful but dumb enough to try play God's Hand, and the "group buy" strategy doesn't work.

When a speculator buys a domain (either as new registration or from the aftermarket), it IS demand. There really is not a clear line between end-users and speculators. I have "investors" paying 4 - 5 figures and end-users sub-hundred.

"Zero supply" of course does not equal demand, but the buyout effort which made it so does. As long as those speculators keep renewing, there is a demand. The same is true for those 42 millions .com and .net (if your numbers are correct): people are willing to spend more than $250 million dollars on domain registration, and you don't call it demand?!

That Econ 101 rule (of demand and supply) OF COURSE works for domain names. The thing is whether you truly understand how it works ... or not.

If you want to take old models of business and ATTEMPT to supply them to domains, then you need to go to an old model business.

For any one to sit there and tell me this is about supply and demand is off their mark. The reason? There is only ONE OF each.

Now, does that create demand? In 99.99% of the cases - NO. The reason? There are 42 million parked pages in just .com and .net. How many in all ccTLD's are parked?

You equate a supply as being one of taken.

That is great if you are trying to convince a domainer. But there is this thing called gTLD's and .net, not to mention ccTLD's. The only limit to a supply is constrained by the number of TLD's. And guess what? We are about to get slammed with more.

How successful do you think .nyc, .london, .berlin will be? And why? What are the backers of these claiming is the reason these are needed?

You need to convince the world that diner.nyc, tube.london, tek.berlin are not needed because all someone who have to do is buy the .com, .net, .de, .co.uk, or .us.

All are available. All are available FOR A HEFTY PRICE.

You have no idea how domainers sitting on domains has created the very market conditions we currently see.

Take all the perhaps billions of domains and tell me how many are actually sites?

How many are upper echelon prime?

Then there is the rest. There is no problem with supply.

Because when someone asks to buy a domain and it is so damn over priced what happens? They go elsewhere. The supply is an endless stream of bullshit but also some very great alternatives in many other extensions or even in the .com.

And domainers? Buy and park, buy and park. It does not matter if you are buying off someone else or regging.

Do you equate someone inquiring about a domain as "demand"? One inquire is equal to demand? This morning I got the first offer ever for qufs dot com. Why? I have no ideas. Does 4 years of ownership and one offer suddenly equate to Demand? If there are 1140 people bidding on a domain at snapnames, is that equate to demand? Why, because you have a captive audience of domainers bidding against each other? Out of 1140 how many are ready to see it through? How many drop out at 59, 70, 100?

You figures are so full of flaws and support my arguments precisely. Domainers buying domains off each other is like swapping spit - its keeping it in the "family".

That $250 million in regs demonstrates no end to the supply. $250 million in regs to me show the very dilution I was referring to. The percieved demand is newbies and wannabees getting into the market. How many truly great domains of that $250 mil are truly going to make it?

Lets say I don't understand economics 101 and all my years of marketing and advertising was not coming into play here.

You are actually calling domains a "near PERFECT" market. Domainers owning a domain and essentially wanting a kings ransom does not equal anything close to demand. The only demands are the ones coming from the owner.

Yes, there is a class all to itself that are near perfect to own. But what would that be? 100 words, 1000 words, 10,000 words? I have lists that will scan up to 100,000 of the most popular english words. Mercy, I have only mentioned english words.



So, professor, this is the lecture you would give to 1st year ecomonic, sociology, psychology, marketing, and management students?

If you did, you have just ****ed up these kids for life.

Then there would be some smart assed punk like me sitting in the back of the room that knows a thing about something and would comment,

Professor, how can this be a near perfect market when there is no limit to the supply? Even if we take the top 100 words of the english language and register them in ever extension, that is STILL only the top 100 words FOR each extension.

Are you telling me that if I want business.com I have to pay 5 million to get it? I have no choices? I can't have the .net for 50K? I can't have .info for 2.5K? I can't have .us for $500? I can't have .mobi for $35?

So if I have the .info I won't get any value out of it as a site? Even though .com, .net, .org, .us are parked and the owners are demanding too much for them? If I build a site of business.info to instruct people how to start a business, fund it, invest, etc then it will never succeed?

Yes, it all started with .com, then .net, then .org, .edu, .gov, .us, .info, .aero, .pro, .biz, and then there came a need to have more than just word.com. Along came
AC
AD
AE
AERO
AF
AG
AI
AL
AM
AN
AO
AQ
AR
ARPA
AS
ASIA
AT
AU
AW
AX
AZ
BA
BB
BD
BE
BF
BG
BH
BI
BIZ
BJ
BM
BN
BO
BR
BS
BT
BV
BW
BY
BZ
CA
CAT
CC
CD
CF
CG
CH
CI
CK
CL
CM
CN
CO
COM
COOP
CR
CU
CV
CX
CY
CZ
DE
DJ
DK
DM
DO
DZ
EC
EDU
EE
EG
ER
ES
ET
EU
FI
FJ
FK
FM
FO
FR
GA
GB
GD
GE
GF
GG
GH
GI
GL
GM
GN
GOV
GP
GQ
GR
GS
GT
GU
GW
GY
HK
HM
HN
HR
HT
HU
ID
IE
IL
IM
IN
INFO
INT
IO
IQ
IR
IS
IT
JE
JM
JO
JOBS
JP
KE
KG
KH
KI
KM
KN
KP
KR
KW
KY
KZ
LA
LB
LC
LI
LK
LR
LS
LT
LU
LV
LY
MA
MC
MD
ME
MG
MH
MIL
MK
ML
MM
MN
MO
MOBI
MP
MQ
MR
MS
MT
MU
MUSEUM
MV
MW
MX
MY
MZ
NA
NAME
NC
NE
NET
NF
NG
NI
NL
NO
NP
NR
NU
NZ
OM
ORG
PA
PE
PF
PG
PH
PK
PL
PM
PN
PR
PRO
PS
PT
PW
PY
QA
RE
RO
RS
RU
RW
SA
SB
SC
SD
SE
SG
SH
SI
SJ
SK
SL
SM
SN
SO
SR
ST
SU
SV
SY
SZ
TC
TD
TEL
TF
TG
TH
TJ
TK
TL
TM
TN
TO
TP
TR
TRAVEL
TT
TV
TW
TZ
UA
UG
UK
US
UY
UZ
VA
VC
VE
VG
VI
VN
VU
WF
WS
YE
YT
YU
ZA
ZM
ZW

[mjnels]

cliffnotes please..

[Gerry]

cliffnotes please..

Cliffnotes won't help.

Appears some people are using textbooks from 1996, 2000, and 2006 and apply those principles to June 2009.

I do not think dated cliffnotes will help.

Actually, I think someone has been using Cliffnotes too much and missed the primary ingredients.

Here it is in a nutshell

supply
demand
perfect market

~~

That's all the stoners in the back of the class heard out of the entire semester.

[biggedon]

i got a couple of .mobi ( two or three) that i already renewed


i agree that there is no demand for .mobi outside of domainerville and until consumers latch on to the namespace, it will always be mostly a "domainer fueled" speculative market.

[Gerry]

be mostly a "domainer fueled" speculative market.

That is nearly the entire domain market.

[Anthony Ng]

You equate a supply as being one of taken.

No, I don't. Enough said.

I would also like to note that my posts in this thread are NOT exactly "replies" to those of Doc Com. Just so people don't skip MINE. And the following paragraphs are more a general discussion of domain names, so please read on even before any CliffsNotes version of those long posts is published.

Are you telling me that if I want business.com I have to pay 5 million to get it? I have no choices? I can't have the .net for 50K? I can't have .info for 2.5K? I can't have .us for $500? I can't have .mobi for $35?

This all comes down to SUBSTITUTABILITY. I have written about this before (right here on DNF and elsewhere) that while each domain name is UNIQUE in a sense, it's whether you can find a replacement OF EQUAL CAPACITY that matters. That is also why prices vary among business.com, business.info and business.mobi. But NO, if you want to run a web project of the capacity of business.com, then business.net is NOT an option. I thought that was obvious, no?

EDIT: Oops! I actually only wrote 1 single paragraph in this part. I guess it's an art to write short and content rich at the same time.

[Gerry]

no?

No.

Question?

I am about to enter into the arena of Medical Information Techology and Medical Information Management.

Which books should I buy?

Or just buy the cliff notes?

If you want short version, then we can absolutely twitterize it but, obviously, you still will not accept this for the way things are currently.



This is NOT about where the internet has been.

This is about where the internet is going.

It is not about building a business and people will come to you.

It is consumer driven and targeted.

In order to be successful and survive, you go to the consumer and give them what they ask for.

My Name, My Language, My Internet.

The mantra for the new internet.

Coming to a PC, Laptop, netbook, UMPC, PDA, or mobile near you.

[Area52]

What's a .mobi?

Nickname for Richard.

[Adatise]

I plan to hold them at least another year if I can't sell them. I can't say that I am happy with the Mobi reps making big future promises and not keeping their word.

[bgmv]

I still got a few and I will hold on to them for a while, because I think they will make me a very wealthy man:

- More and more people are dropping their .mobi
- The more people are dropping their .mobi the less .mobi domains exist
- The less of something exists, the scarcer it gets
- The scarcer something gets, the more expensive it will be

So my strategy is to hold on to my domains until I own all .mobi domains in the world (all 10 of them !) and then sell them to collectors for biiiiiiiiiiig money.

But in order for something to increase in value there must be demand, you could have all the .mobi in the world but if no one wants them then your out of luck.

Also, the .mobi dropping dont cease to exist - people just dont reg them anymore, its not as if the registrars put a stop order on all .mobi registrations

[eksperts]

...
GLOBAL CONSUMERS do not care what domains are being held and in what extension. All they care about is finding the product, place, or service that they need. ...[skip]...
It is all about the consumer, it is all about branding, it is all about place...

Brilliant! Thank you Doc. Even I, with my in socialism born brains can understand it.

Back to topic, I renewed all 3 of my 3 .mobi's ,although planning to drop about 1/3 of my com's.