Ok someone refresh my memory....

[TheLegendaryJP]

Ok its been a long day and I cant find the answer so here is the story.

I am looking at buying a dot ca that also has a ab.ca ( provincial ) variant, for example I want to buy example.ca and it appears registered by one guy yet example.ab.ca is also registered by another person.

Any issues here, how did that happen and what are the pros/cons?

Thanks

[jaydub]

Hey JP
A little while back I bought ar*o.on.ca It allowed me to buy ar*o.ca as well after I bought it. I just contacted my registrar (NamesPro) and told them I wanted the domain without the provincial as well. I paid the reg fee and now own it. I think that if someone else wanted to use the .mb.ca of the domain for example they would have to get permission from me.
Quite often when you check the reg for a .ca it will show an error because the name itself is reg'd with a provincial attached so it can't be reg'd as the domain.ca except by the owner of the original reg. Hope that's not too confusing.

I think this is correct but I am never quite positive when it comes to the .ca's..

[hugegrowth]

if someone owns the .ab.ca, and another person owns the .ca, I'm pretty sure you can just buy the .ca off the one guy no problem.

If you want another provincial version that is unowned, you'd need the other guy's permission.

In this case, if you are able to buy the .ca, and you wanted to register the .bc.ca version, you'd have to get permission from the guy owning the .ab.ca

Anyone else?

[TheLegendaryJP]

I am also told that if a second/third etc teir name like example.ab.ca is reg'd anyone wanting the .ca alone needs their permission should the .ca owner drop the name!

The process is CDN on conflicting domain.. this rule is messed up basically you need to bribe them to reg a name they dont care about anyway.

[DomainSpace]

I am also told that if a second/third etc teir name like example.ab.ca is reg'd anyone wanting the .ca alone needs their permission should the .ca owner drop the name!

The process is CDN on conflicting domain.. this rule is messed up basically you need to bribe them to reg a name they dont care about anyway.

That's correct. It basically gives them all the power. That's why you see those LLL.ab.ca domains being scoped up in the TBR for the same reason to control the .ca . There are still a lot of businesses that have this and you can't get the .ca because of them.

---------- Post added at 11:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 PM ----------

Just look at the TBR today - The domain name qlh.qc.ca dropped and was picked up but if you want qlh.ca you can't get it because of this error..

From Cira " Search for domain qlh.ca failed.

01114 The domain name provided conflicts with at least one other registered domain name (e.g. xyz.ca conflicts with xyz.on.ca). Registering this domain name requires permission from the Registrant(s) that already holds the domain name(s): qlh.qc.ca. Contact CIRA for more information."

But the person who just registered qlh.qc.ca will be able to register it and control the .ca.

[TheLegendaryJP]

Is this the only cctld they do this for? I know we have provinces but do other cctld do this to a degree, it sucks :(

[msn]

Is this the only cctld they do this for? I know we have provinces but do other cctld do this to a degree, it sucks :(

You need to understand the background of this, going back to CANARIE and pre-CIRA days. The .ca domain was set up to establish a tree for communications, and it made sense to implement a geographic, rather than organisational, set of sub-domains. This way, you could easily establish the location and even the responsible organiser for each given sub-sub-domain.

Key to all of this was the fact that each party was allowed to register one .ca domain, plus an additional one as a translation of the first in the other official language. By branching by province, you then were able to provide many organisations with addresses.

National organisations, or at least ones with a presence in more than one province, were able to request a sub-domain directly from the .ca level but this was usually too much work for most folks.

If you compare to other countries, which used .co and .org, such as the United Kingdom with .co.uk and .org.uk and so on, Canada had a much more intelligent approach.

After CIRA took over the .ca system it was possible for anyone to register any domain, and any number of domains, which was possibly not the best idea in terms of structure, but certainly delivered plenty of money to CIRA.

One could argue that if the provincial and territorial sub-domains were kept as priority, we would have a bigger market right now for end-user domains - think food.bc.ca to food.nl.ca - and more intelligent rules about gaining a direct .ca registration would have placed a far higher real and perceived value on great .ca domains.

[6sons]

Where there is more than “one entity” on the domain no other ptld can be registered unless all existing domain holders agree. When you are the only one on the domain (whether it is the .ca or .on.ca (or bc.ca etc) then only you have the authority to register or allow someone else to register a ptld. You do this through your registrar even though a Cira search will show "failed".


The "permission to register" rule is awkward. Where there is only one owner of the domain and the desire is to create a second the best way to deal with this is to register the domain of interest (ptld or tld) and then simply transfer it. (If you are the seller then you would register it first. If you are the buyer then have the seller register it first)

[msn]

Where there is more than “one entity” on the domain no other ptld can be registered unless all existing domain holders agree. When you are the only one on the domain (whether it is the .ca or .on.ca (or bc.ca etc) then only you have the authority to register or allow someone else to register a ptld. You do this through your registrar even though a Cira search will show "failed".


The "permission to register" rule is awkward. Where there is only one owner of the domain and the desire is to create a second the best way to deal with this is to register the domain of interest (ptld or tld) and then simply transfer it. (If you are the seller then you would register it first. If you are the buyer then have the seller register it first)

The rule is necessary since you need to guard the interests of the existing sub-sub-domain holders. Just the same, if two or more provincial or territorial level sub-sub-domains exist, it should not be required to get permission for another at the same level, since it would not affect the rights already in place. If CIRA would make that change, it again would open up the market quite a bit.

[6sons]

The rule is necessary since you need to guard the interests of the existing sub-sub-domain holders. Just the same, if two or more provincial or territorial level sub-sub-domains exist, it should not be required to get permission for another at the same level, since it would not affect the rights already in place. If CIRA would make that change, it again would open up the market quite a bit.

The rule is necessary to guard interests but thats not what I am referring to. I am referring to the process. It is unnessary to use the permission process to create and transfer a domain when there is only one owner on the domain. The owner merely needs to create the desired ptld and then transfer it to a would be interested party. After that the owner no longer has unilateral control of the domain unless it is part of a side agreement.

As far as rights go when you are the only owner on a domain it includes the unilateral right to create and own a number of ptlds. If you share the domain then you share that right. If a third party at that point could just register without permission then it does effect the rights of those "two" existing owners. They could for example agree to joint ownership or each take 4 or so ptlds. Having said that for a large percentage of domains we are talking peanuts in terms of value lost at this point.

[TheLegendaryJP]

The rule is necessary to guard interests but thats not what I am referring to. I am referring to the process. It is unnessary to use the permission process to create and transfer a domain when there is only one owner on the domain. The owner merely needs to create the desired ptld and then transfer it to a would be interested party. After that the owner no longer has unilateral control of the domain unless it is part of a side agreement.

I discovered this Wayne and asked..no had to literally bribe the registrant to the point it just didnt make sense anymore ( financially ). The system is certainly flawed, while I understand protecting ones name the outcome has more likely become a tool to get paid off.

As far as rights go when you are the only owner on a domain it includes the unilateral right to create and own a number of ptlds. If you share the domain then you share that right. If a third party at that point could just register without permission then it does effect the rights of those "two" existing owners. They could for example agree to joint ownership or each take 4 or so ptlds. Having said that for a large percentage of domains we are talking peanuts in terms of value lost at this point.

Good point and why grandpa always said own 51% or own nothin

[Acro]

On another note, CanadianBacon.biz is available to register

[6sons]

Hey JP.

I look at it similar to real estate. What you really own is the bundle of rights ie the right to occupy. So if you buy a house that comes with a tenant you are getting your rights bundle except for the right to occupy since it has already been granted. In exchange for that grant you get rent.

Heres a slice for you along those lines. One of the operations (rights) of owning a domain name is to create email addresses. You could sell a domain but maintain the right to create email addresses or by contast sell the right to create email addresses and keep the domain. Tough I'm sure to find such a buyer but it's do-able.

[TheLegendaryJP]

True enough Wayne, anything is possible

Except me getting a tremendous .ca this week because a guy in AB wants his ab.ca to stand alone lol ... that and he thinks he's on who wants to be a millionaire.

[DomainSpace]

One more point about the old system (before 2000) - registering a .ca domain name was harder to do but you could register more then one domain name. All you had to do was be a registered Canadian Corporation (not a provincial corp) or have offices in two or more provinces. If you had either you could register the domain name which was FREE to register back then. A lot of high quality domain names where controlled by a few smart enough back then to use the Canadian Corp (a number corp) or offices in both (example: Ontario and Quebec) and the domain names would be part of the business [and under a number corporation they could register more then one domain name]. In 2000 when they opened it up to allow all Canadian the rights to register a .ca without those provincial restrictions they slapped a renewal cost on it. But first allowed the domain owners who had a provincial domain if only they existed to register the .ca.

I remember the day the .ca went live with no restrictions and seeing a lot of keywords grabbed fast. But at a rate 4 times higher then a dot com registered at OPENSRS. So most of the people I knew ignored the .ca because

1/ it was more expensive
2/ more restrictive

They felt it was better to buy a .com / .net then a .ca simply because you have the world as a buyer.

[fwdtech]

Is this the only cctld they do this for? I know we have provinces but do other cctld do this to a degree, it sucks :(

I think the Canadian tld is the best system in the world, bar none, ESPECIALLY the bonus domains that can be created for reg fees only.
I want NO changes.
You should expand your thinking a little - especially from a development point of view.
Check ward4.ca for an idea. (municipal elections this fall )

[Namefox]

I love the fact that you can register the provincial extension if you own the root domain. Great if you own a domain that relates provincially. What I don't like is the fact that someone can approach the owner of a provincial extension i.e. bc.ca and buy the root domain. Alot of times, the owner knows nothing about value. It makes the waters murky on ownership in my opinion. So basically if you own the root domain initially, you own the rights to the provincial extension. But if you buy the root domain from someone owning the provincial extension, then you now owns the provincial extensions. It begs for clarity and is a big loop hole in my opinion.

[msn]

I think the Canadian tld is the best system in the world, bar none, ESPECIALLY the bonus domains that can be created for reg fees only.
I want NO changes.
You should expand your thinking a little - especially from a development point of view.
Check ward4.ca for an idea. (municipal elections this fall )

Why limit yourself? You could offer toronto.ward4.on.ca and orillia.ward4.on.ca at the same time!

---------- Post added at 12:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

But if you buy the root domain from someone owning the provincial extension, then you now owns the provincial extensions. It begs for clarity and is a big loop hole in my opinion.

That is not quite right. If one registers a .ca with permission from a provincial or territorial sub-sub-domain holder, the right to register additional provincial or territorial sub-sub-domains is not automatic. You need to get permission from each and every matching holder, each and every time.

[DomainSpace]

Here's a domain name that has different businesses... But yet the .ca was issued first so it is confusing. I think the all of these domains where in place before the opening of registering a .ca without restrictions... because the .ca description states offices in more then one province...etc.

yes.ca - domain registered - 2000/10/19 - (restauranr management group. Offices in more than one province).
yes.on.ca - domain registered - 2000/10/23 (Youth Employment Service register #31749
yes.bc.ca - domain registered - 2000/11/02 - (Yes Dispute Resolution Services Inc.)

This is just an example but it is one that trying to understand how it worked back then is confusing. Now is much easier - by the .ca simple... I don't like the .on.ca etc but if I owned the com.ca / net.ca / org.ca - one could start a UK style registry - example domain.com.ca canada.com.ca etc more people in the world would remember that over domain.on.ca

[fwdtech]

Just remembered this email received last month:

"****,

During my attempt to register *******.ca, I was made aware that you are the domain owner of *******..bc.ca. CIRA rules require me to contact you to receive your approval to register *******..ca.

Please contact me at your earliest convenience to discuss this matter.


***"

It's somewhat amusing the demanding tone of most of these requests.