Why the next Domainer Meeting in Paris will be a flop

[centreurope.org]

Hi,
We've seen that the recent Moniker/Traffic/Sedo auctions have not been successful and I would like to tell why we should not imho expect anything else for the next Domainer Meeting.
The next event is in Paris. This could be a real advantage, because French multinationals are amongst the most powerful in the world. I'm French but I left France many years ago because I'm very pessimistic about this declining country. However, French companies (ie. L'Oréal, LVMH, Accor, Renault, Air France...) are doing very well, thanks to their large international presence.

Selling premium domain names to end users at the Domainer Meeting event would have been very easy with a little intelligence from the people in charge of the communication. Networks are (unfortunately) essential to conduct business in France and we, French domainers, are in contact with the local economic sphere. In the French section on DNF, how many messages do we have about this event ? There are 3 French-speaking domaining forums (forumndd.com, domaineur.com & frenchdomains.fr), how many messages there ? On the domainermeeting.com website, do we have any contact email for contact form ? You can imagine the answers.

To my opinion, we can not be surprised that the domain name market is not vigorous. From what I see, it's a sector where are more or less absent researchers, financial investors, entrepreneurs and other categories of people that are essential for the success of an industry. On the contrary, what I feel is that it is a sector managed by more or less good merchants, but with a sense of ethics and strategy as deep as a matchbox.

Some domainers feel that the market is showing signs of recession, but it has nothing to do with the intrinseque value of domain names. The domain names industry is only starting and it is the most promising I know. The recession is for domainers, which are imo the least evolved species of the ecosystem. French domainers, which have been superbly ignored by the Eurodns & Moniker management are in general more advanced, because they can be qualified as "webmainers". We understood later than domainers the power of domain names, but we came with a prior knowledge. We do not sell names at $xx,xxx, but we sell websites at $xxx,xxx, mostly thanks to the competitive advantage of the domains we acquired. Many French domainers/webmainers I know impress me much more by their vision than the as famous as uneducated domain name gurus. But I think that the real winners of our industry will not be webmainers but those that can adapt to this strange and changing environment called the Internet. It means mastering the monetization process, e-commerce, SEO, design, viral marketing, use of social networks, understanding of customer habits, etc. A domain name, even premium, has a relatively low value, compared to what can be done with it. The value is for those that can have a vision for the domain (there's no need to transform a domain name into a major website to seduce an enduser, but we must at least present a structured project) or offer services for this major and promising industry.

[italiandragon]

Originally Posted by centreurope.org

Hi,
We've seen that the recent Moniker/Traffic/Sedo auctions have not been successful and I would like to tell why we should not imho expect anything else for the next Domainer Meeting.
The next event is in Paris. This could be a real advantage, because French multinationals are amongst the most powerful in the world. I'm French but I left France many years ago because I'm very pessimistic about this declining country. However, French companies (ie. L'Oréal, LVMH, Accor, Renault, Air France...) are doing very well, thanks to their large international presence.

Selling premium domain names to end users at the Domainer Meeting event would have been very easy with a little intelligence from the people in charge of the communication. Networks are (unfortunately) essential to conduct business in France and we, French domainers, are in contact with the local economic sphere. In the French section on DNF, how many messages do we have about this event ? There are 3 French-speaking domaining forums (forumndd.com, domaineur.com & frenchdomains.fr), how many messages there ? On the domainermeeting.com website, do we have any contact email for contact form ? You can imagine the answers.

To my opinion, we can not be surprised that the domain name market is not vigorous. From what I see, it's a sector where are more or less absent researchers, financial investors, entrepreneurs and other categories of people that are essential for the success of an industry. On the contrary, what I feel is that it is a sector managed by more or less good merchants, but with a sense of ethics and strategy as deep as a matchbox.

Some domainers feel that the market is showing signs of recession, but it has nothing to do with the intrinseque value of domain names. The domain names industry is only starting and it is the most promising I know. The recession is for domainers, which are imo the least evolved species of the ecosystem. French domainers, which have been superbly ignored by the Eurodns & Moniker management are in general more advanced, because they can be qualified as "webmainers". We understood later than domainers the power of domain names, but we came with a prior knowledge. We do not sell names at $xx,xxx, but we sell websites at $xxx,xxx, mostly thanks to the competitive advantage of the domains we acquired. Many French domainers/webmainers I know impress me much more by their vision than the as famous as uneducated domain name gurus. But I think that the real winners of our industry will not be webmainers but those that can adapt to this strange and changing environment called the Internet. It means mastering the monetization process, e-commerce, SEO, design, viral marketing, use of social networks, understanding of customer habits, etc. A domain name, even premium, has a relatively low value, compared to what can be done with it. The value is for those that can have a vision for the domain (there's no need to transform a domain name into a major website to seduce an enduser, but we must at least present a structured project) or offer services for this major and promising industry.

In the mean time today Sedo reports 2 sales:

coffee.org $100,000

248.com $175,000


Maybe you`re looking obly at the half empty glass.

[click55]

I think there is a bit of confusion between "domainers" and "developers".

The domainer meeting is mainly dedicated to the world of domainers and i am glad i will attend it.
But they even have a development panel!

[FreddyS]

Originally Posted by centreurope.org

Hi,
We've seen that the recent Moniker/Traffic/Sedo auctions ha....................roject) or offer services for this major and promising industry.

Hi,
I do not want to conter your arguments, as we would end in an endless discussion.

I fully agree that I wasnt active in the french forums as my french skills are very limited. Honestly I expected, as we are talking here about an event in paris, that the community it self would be entusiastic about the event without being pushed.

A few of the major players from france like Kirkendal already signed up.
From Domainsponsor I know that 40% of all visitors of domainfest signed up 20 days before the show.
Domainermeeting has already approx 200 signup until 31st May, so there is still space to grow to meet 300.
But even with 200 it is the largest conference every for Domainers in Europe.

[Acro]

Of course, if one enters a domain conference with only the intention to sell goodies at its bazaar, they are missing the entire forest by remaining focused on one tree.

Read my blog if you want to see why TRAFFIC / Orlando was a great networking event.

[ilovedomains]

"Some domainers feel that the market is showing signs of recession"

Dont worry. The people running these auctions have been manipulating prices for years, and are getting very good at it. Prices will rise until there are no sheep left to fleece. Its the American way.

[Bender]

Originally Posted by ilovedomains

Dont worry. The people running these auctions have been manipulating prices for years, and are getting very good at it. Prices will rise until there are no sheep left to fleece. Its the American way.

[centreurope.org]

Hi Freddy,

I do not want to conter your arguments, as we would end in an endless discussion.

Too bad. My arguments are just based on feelings. I'm not familiar with the international domaining sector, thus I may be wrong on many things. Domain names are a passion for me and I like to try to understand the major trends. But I'm far from an expert!

I fully agree that I wasnt active in the french forums as my french skills are very limited. Honestly I expected, as we are talking here about an event in paris, that the community it self would be entusiastic about the event without being pushed.

That makes sense. But imo you could have explained to the community why this event is worth attending. Or better, try to understand what this community is looking for and allow some room in your programme for those particular needs. But I understand that the presence or not of French domainers is rather unimportant for this international event.

A few of the major players from france like Kirkendal already signed up.

Bad example, in my opinion.

But even with 200 it is the largest conference every for Domainers in Europe.

Congratulations. I was wrong, your event will certainly be a success. But I still think that regarding sales and attendance, you could have done much better with more focus on the French community.

By the way, thanks Freddy for your mp and your consideration. But sorry, I can not help you. I love domain names, because I'm every day in contact with passionate people with which we share some values such as research of cooperation, sharing tips, etc. The transactions we make are anecdotic, the most important is the quality and the honesty of the relationships we have and the things we build together. I may be an utopist, but I like to see business this way and I've got hundred of online friends that share the same values and from which I learn everyday. I can be wrong, but I feel that people from Eurodns, Moniker and many major international domainers are different. What I dislike first is their disrespect for ethics. The fact that business is hard is not an excuse to me. Look at Rémy from Sedo France. His company is just like yours and other major players, often criticized. But this person is so devoted to its clients that many of us could travel hundreds of miles just to have the pleasure to shake his hand. What I mean is that it's possible to be in an industry of sharks and behave like a delphin.
And the second reason why I'm not interested in such events is that the speakers are people that have a conventional vision of their industry. Hard-working people that deserve to be respected, yes. But anything very interesting to tell, I doubt it. You can read dnjournal, dnmagazine, Rick Schwarz's blog or hear Monte, you'll always have the same content. I learn more about our sector and its potential by chatting with a minor domainer from Algeria or Belgium or even with somebody that is opposed to domaining...

Dont worry. The people running these auctions have been manipulating prices for years, and are getting very good at it. Prices will rise until there are no sheep left to fleece. Its the American way

I also think it's a cultural issue. I like America and Americans, probably more than my fellowpeople, but I'm afraid the're going backwards everyday...

The domainer meeting is mainly dedicated to the world of domainers and i am glad i will attend it.

you're right. But don't domainers feel it's time to evolve? It's just a question, but we are numerous to feel that there's no future for domainers, at least in countries like France. For legal reasons but also because parking is little profitable and our market is too limited to sell to domainers. Thus we need to turn to endusers and nobody will give you any significant amount for just a few letters followed by www.

coffee.org $100,000
Maybe you`re looking obly at the half empty glass.

Not bad, but not even the price of a full-page ad in the French newspaper "Le Monde". And less that what my neighbour is making in one month to shoot in a foot ball. Domain names have a much higher potential that those prices.

[ksinclair]

Every market has its ups and downs. Things seem slower right now, but it will pick up. The scarcity of good .com's will only continue and therefore, prices on average will increase. Domain Owners with premium domains are selling well, so that continues to be a good strategy. But in general, in a slower market, the smart buyers will hold their good domains and start buying bargains.

I agree with much of what centreurope.org says in the post starting this thread. The domain industry is not yet a mature market. Its more like the lottery than a marketplace; the seller of the top domain at each auction has done very well, but its hard to see what the regular guy can learn from that.

Since most domain sales are between domainers the long term prospect is educating end users. I think that can only be done by developing your domain, getting it ranked, having traffic, and users. Then you have something to show end users.

I dont like domain valuation based on traffic because traffic can change, and PPC rates can change (as we have seen). Traffic-based valuation seems more a tool to get bargains for the well-financed domainers than anything else.

What we need is a valuation model based on the size and characteristics of the actual real-world market that the domain represents. I am wondering this: if you compile the information including total sales in a market, the size of top players, and growth rates of the market, and perhaps most importantly the total advertising budgets for the companies in a market, then you could start to make a pricing model for domains. An economist could do this.

I believe this model would show that domains are currently underpriced.

If we had such a model, the next step is to keep track of which domains sell for close to what the model predicted. Domainers could strive or that price level and hold until they achieve it.

Until we have better models its basically random. So the people who hold their domain until they get a great price have the best strategy.

Kevin

[sdsinc]

Originally Posted by ksinclair

Since most domain sales are between domainers the long term prospect is educating end users. I think that can only be done by developing your domain, getting it ranked, having traffic, and users. Then you have something to show end users.

I beg to disagree. I doubt the majority of sales reported on dnjournal take place between two domainers.
I mean, domain sales do occur elsewhere than in the domaining forums.

[FreddyS]

Originally Posted by sdsinc

I beg to disagree. I doubt the majority of sales reported on dnjournal take place between two domainers.
I mean, domain sales do occur elsewhere than in the domaining forums.

I think all arguments from everyone have some true in it.
The last month we setup a business plan to rise some funds from big Financial Investors, most of them didnt know before that "used" domains can be bought.
In the next years the registrar business will change totally and registered domains will be implemented in the domain search like available domaines, Fab is doing that already.
From there on we will have a much more liquide market, and it will be much easier to buy and sell domains.

I see some of you having strong thoughts about what is going on. Would someone of you be interested to talk about that on a panel?
I think we do not need always the same guys on the panel, we need controversy discussions.

DomainerMeeting will be like DNForum or other Forums, but live! you can finaly meet the people you are talking since years. many of you belong to smaller groups and meet from time to time other domainers as I do too.
But this event will be a mix of all kind of domainer groups.

[italiandragon]

Originally Posted by Freddy@EuroDNS

I think all arguments from everyone have some true in it.
The last month we setup a business plan to rise some funds from big Financial Investors, most of them didnt know before that "used" domains can be bought.
In the next years the registrar business will change totally and registered domains will be implemented in the domain search like available domaines, Fab is doing that already.
From there on we will have a much more liquide market, and it will be much easier to buy and sell domains.

I see some of you having strong thoughts about what is going on. Would someone of you be interested to talk about that on a panel?
I think we do not need always the same guys on the panel, we need controversy discussions.

DomainerMeeting will be like DNForum or other Forums, but live! you can finaly meet the people you are talking since years. many of you belong to smaller groups and meet from time to time other domainers as I do too.
But this event will be a mix of all kind of domainer groups.

Hi Freddie, I have a private thing to ask, can you send me a private message with your email address please?

Thanks

[centreurope.org]

Originally Posted by ksinclair

What we need is a valuation model based on the size and characteristics of the actual real-world market that the domain represents. I am wondering this: if you compile the information including total sales in a market, the size of top players, and growth rates of the market, and perhaps most importantly the total advertising budgets for the companies in a market, then you could start to make a pricing model for domains. An economist could do this.

Hi Kevin,
I like very much your idea. The intrinseque value of domain names depends on how much it's worth for endusers. A difficulty could however be to assess how good is a particular name for a given industry and how two different names (extension, syntax...) destined for the same industry could compare together.

I believe this model would show that domains are currently underpriced.

Yes, but not all. For example, in my opinion domainers give a too high value to old names. The enduser does not care about the age of a domain.

[FreddyS]

Originally Posted by italiandragon

Hi Freddie, I have a private thing to ask, can you send me a private message with your email address please?

Thanks

you can reach me at my new email:
fschiwek aatt DomainInvest Dot LU

I do not worry about spam, I think I am already on all lists.

[chois]

Has anyone heard any news?

Moniker has not released auction list yet, has they?

[FreddyS]

Originally Posted by chois

Has anyone heard any news?

Moniker has not released auction list yet, has they?

If I remember correctly nothing was published..

Originally Posted by Freddy@EuroDNS

If I remember correctly nothing was published..

got this tonight in an newsletter of of DomainSponsor, but I think its not the final list, I will ask them to add some nice generic DotFR:

Europeans.com
Chocolate.net
Condos.it
Receipe.org
Blackjack.lc
Gouda.com
Rainbows.com
Order.net
Onlinedegrees.de
Burma.net
Soccerscores.com
Champagnes.info
Telephonedirectory.de
Goatcheese.com
Domain.sc
Sports.mu
Silver.net
Attorney.mn
650.com
354.com
Italian.net
Denmark.net
Pizza.info
Xp.com
Bb.org
Chicken.org
Catholic.be
Liquiddiet.com
Ged.net
Love.sc
Mp3.sc
Mp3.vg
Cats.fr
Fantasyfootball.cc
Freemusicdownloads.info
Soccer.gs
Baseball.vc
Football.sh
Computer.hn
Fotos.net
Freevideos.jp
Irish.info
Guitars.cn
Dancing.info
Airpollution.org
Doctor.sc
Blog.vg
Petsupplies.info
Male.org
Seo.mobi
Caughtontape.co.uk
Gas.sc
Planetickets.it
Cosmeticsurgery.vc
Podcasts.net
Gas.vc
Disease.es
Latinwomen.info
Catholic.eu
Bestfriend.fr
13.gs
Airports.info
Debt.de
Polls.es
Wireless.io
Chocolatecake.de
Seven.bz
Organic.info
Motorbikes.net
Fax.org
Jewelers.it
Meeting.eu
Lawfirm.es
555.mobi
Tk.net
Convention.la
Exterminators.de
Havarti.com
Business.vg
Loans.dk
Barcellona.mobi
Holland.net
Host.com
Hotels.eu
Condos.it
Provence.com
Versailles.com

[chois]

Originally Posted by Freddy@EuroDNS

Europeans.com
Chocolate.net
Condos.it
Receipe.org
Blackjack.lc
Gouda.com
Rainbows.com
Order.net
Onlinedegrees.de
Burma.net
Soccerscores.com
Champagnes.info
Telephonedirectory.de
Goatcheese.com
Domain.sc
Sports.mu
Silver.net
Attorney.mn
650.com
354.com
Italian.net
Denmark.net
Pizza.info
Xp.com
Bb.org
Chicken.org
Catholic.be
Liquiddiet.com
Ged.net
Love.sc
Mp3.sc
Mp3.vg
Cats.fr
Fantasyfootball.cc
Freemusicdownloads.info
Soccer.gs
Baseball.vc
Football.sh
Computer.hn
Fotos.net
Freevideos.jp
Irish.info
Guitars.cn
Dancing.info
Airpollution.org
Doctor.sc
Blog.vg
Petsupplies.info
Male.org
Seo.mobi
Caughtontape.co.uk
Gas.sc
Planetickets.it
Cosmeticsurgery.vc
Podcasts.net
Gas.vc
Disease.es
Latinwomen.info
Catholic.eu
Bestfriend.fr
13.gs
Airports.info
Debt.de
Polls.es
Wireless.io
Chocolatecake.de
Seven.bz
Organic.info
Motorbikes.net
Fax.org
Jewelers.it
Meeting.eu
Lawfirm.es
555.mobi
Tk.net
Convention.la
Exterminators.de
Havarti.com
Business.vg
Loans.dk
Barcellona.mobi
Holland.net
Host.com
Hotels.eu
Condos.it
Provence.com
Versailles.com

Thank you EuroDNS. I just got this email, too.
However, I am very disappointed about the list. It doesn't look like a premium list as Moniker says.
Well, like you said, it is not the final list, though.

Cheers,

[FreddyS]

Originally Posted by chois

Thank you EuroDNS. I just got this email, too.
However, I am very disappointed about the list. It doesn't look like a premium list as Moniker says.
Well, like you said, it is not the final list, though.

Cheers,

I am trying to put together some nice names and push them over to Monte.

[sdsinc]

A few nice names in here but some names are just a waste of time. The past lists were not all that great though.

[dominator]

Football * sh
Seven * bz
Disease * es
Attorney * mn

the best they could select???