'Humans Causing Global Warming' - Fiction?

[JuniperPark]

I'm no scientist, but I thought it was odd to keep hearing that the whole
'humans are causing global warming' theory is "undisputed", when I keep
hearing sane, educated people disputing the idea which facts and references
to studies. When I was a kid they were telling us the earth was COOLING, and
that our fluorocarbons in spray cans were to blame for letting heat out by
thinning the ozone layer... so now it's suddenly a different (and opposing)
story?

If you haven't heard, that chart constantly used in the news from Nature
Magazine showing global temperatures spiking over the last few years have
been proven to be faked, and now even Discovery Channel is asking people to
not use the term "Global Warming" and call it "Climate Shift" instead.
Apparently the "shrinking glaciers" we keep read about have been shrinking
for centuries, and in fact many are growing. But, there is a lot of money
to be make and votes to be earned by keeping this myth going, so it's worth
looking into.

This Australian scientist built a web page which pretty well sums it all up:
http://home.austarnet.com.au/yours/G...e_Bullcrap.htm

[whitebark]

The VAST majority of recognized (that's the important part) scientists all see the human impact. The 'proof' from the deniers doesn't come close to the reams of information being put forward by the others.

There was also a mini-scandal a few years back where a paper was published by the deniers and low and behold - the paper was financed by the oil and gas industry.

Ice core samples can be taken from the antarctic dating back 100's of thousands of years - in no time has there been as much CO2 in our atmosphere as there is now - and that pace is increasing exponentially. To think that man cannot change his environment is just plain silly. Look out your window and try to tell the world that man cannot change his environment.

[JuniperPark]

As stated in the link I provided (with quite a bit of back-up links and references), the ice-core samples show several much 'warming' events before humans existed, in fact it was much warmer just 500 years ago than it is today.

There is no established link between CO2 and warming, in fact, CO2 is not a greenhouse gas and it has far less 'blanket' properties than water vapor.

Man can't yet predict the weather next week, let alone the next 100 years. Yet lots of people are collecting money and votes on this issue. Al Gore is now refusing to discuss the issue with anyone who can refute his statements on global warming.

[whitebark]

There is of course swings in CO2 - there is no denying that - but there has never been as much CO2 in our atmosphere as there is now. And CO2 does trap heat - that's grade school material.

Too many people also only look at CO2 - there are dozens of other pollutants being put into our environment that also contribute to environmental change. Studies show almost every single river through the American and Canadian industry belt is polluted beyond human consumption use. That's because of us and our ways. If we can change the content of a river we can certainly change the content of our atmosphere. There was a time in the early 80's when you could feel your skin burning from acid rain in southern Ontario because of the coal and other industrial plants just across the border. Thankfully successive American governments recognized this and helped enact laws to lesson NO2 etc. That can't be said of the current administration.

CFC's were proven to cause ozone depletion. Fast action corrected that problem and it is now being reversed. There were 'scientists' denying ozone depletion as well.

As for the Gore assertion - Gore isn't a scientist so why should he debate anyone on the subject? Sure he made a film on the subject but if these people want to disprove his work they should focus on the academics that he based his work off of.

[Andrew Shaw]

whitebark, Earth went though an "iceage" and ever since, the planet has been defrosting. Glaciers were a result to the ice age. We arnt in the ice age anymore, and the only reason the glaciers are melting is because the tempertures water encountered during the ice age were FAR less then the tempertures we encounter today.

Put an ice cube in a hot bowl of soup, the ice cube is not going to disapear before your eyes. It will slowly melt. Now think of how big glaciers are, and think of how much hotter a bowl of soup is, then earth. The melting rate is going to increase as the glaciers get smaller, but they are so big it can only happen over a large amount of time.

The way I see it, we know SO LITTLE about EVERYTHING. For us to even suggest that we know what is normal and what is not is nonesense.

[Duckinla]

Time magazine warned of the coming ice age in 1972.
http://time-proxy.yaga.com/time/arch...944914,00.html

I don't like to underestimate human impact on the environment because it gives people free reign to be careless. However, seems apparent that the earth goes through climate shifts with or without human interaction. When George Washington crossed the Delaware river there was a mini-ice age going on that caused huge ice flows in the river at the time. Apparently that is something you just don't see in the Delaware river.

The way I see it, temperatures will stay high for a few more years. This will give even more credibility to the global warming theory and cause everyong to flee north to avoid the heat. JuniperPark and I will then buy up all the Southern California coastline cheap. In a couple years temperatures will break and everyone will want to return. We will make a killing.

[amcdonald]

We have too little historical data to determain humans are the sole cause. The Climate is shifting, there is no doubt about it, it whether or not humans are speeding the process up is the question.

I live up in canada, in one of the colder places. winnipeg. -40 degrees celcius and colder winters, and 40+ celcius summers. let me tell you this summer i have seen bugs i have never seen before. Flowers are blooming 2 months early, there are NO mosquitos, winnipeg is usually completley infested with them, infact it has been such a friggin battle with the mosquitos you would almost think winnipeg has figured out a way to completly eliminate mosquitos because there is NONE.

[Beachie]

I think anyone who believes we aren't having an effect on the climate is a fool. The question is really what the effect is and to what extent.

It's a fact that the polar ice caps contain CO2 and Methane (which is 20 times worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2), which is released when the ice melts. At some point, once the ice caps start to melt, the process is unstoppable because of the gas they release. Effectively the point of no return. That tipping point is generally accepted to be 440 parts per million, and we're currently sitting at 380ppm (up from 280ppm in 1800). In the last 17 years the level has risen 30ppm and it's accelerating, so it's expected that in around 10 years it will be impossible to stop climate change, even if we want to.

The bottom line is that we can keep debating whether climate change is a problem or not, but we have less than ten years to do anything about it, and with the speed that governments work it's already too late. Once our self-indulgent, universe-centric species is wiped off the face of the planet, Mother nature will clean up the mess with an ice age, and some other species will evolve..

[JuniperPark]

I think anyone who believes we aren't having an effect on the climate is a fool.

Actually, they're called 'scientists'. People who seem to beleive it are generally called 'politicians'.

It's a fact that the polar ice caps contain CO2 and Methane (which is 20 times worse as a greenhouse gas than CO2), which is released when the ice melts. At some point, once the ice caps start to melt, the process is unstoppable because of the gas they release. Effectively the point of no return. That tipping point is generally accepted to be 440 parts per million, and we're currently sitting at 380ppm (up from 280ppm in 1800). In the last 17 years the level has risen 30ppm and it's accelerating, so it's expected that in around 10 years it will be impossible to stop climate change, even if we want to.

The bottom line is that we can keep debating whether climate change is a problem or not, but we have less than ten years to do anything about it, and with the speed that governments work it's already too late.

The climate has been changing since the Earth began -- the only question on the table is whether humans are causing it. If you read the web page I posted, there is MASSIVE evidence that this is not the case.

CO2 is not a "greenhouse gas", nor is methane. Water vapor has more geeenhouse effect.

[Beachie]

Actually, they're called 'scientists'. People who seem to beleive it are generally called 'politicians'.



The climate has been changing since the Earth began -- the only question on the table is whether humans are causing it. If you read the web page I posted, there is MASSIVE evidence that this is not the case.

CO2 is not a "greenhouse gas", nor is methane. Water vapor has more geeenhouse effect.

You'll find that, ignoring politicians (who have no interest in doing anything other than what gets them re-elected), the number of 'scientists' who believe global warming is caused by humans far outweighs the number who don't. The bottom line is this: if you're right then we're fine. If you're wrong, we're screwed. Prevention is better than a cure (especially when there potentially isn't a cure), and we have ten years to figure out if your point of view destroys civilization. I'm not saying it will happen, but if you don't recognize that it *might* you're a fool. It's a big call you're making.

[H2FC]

I'm glad to see we have at least 2 or 3 people here who believe as I do that global warming is a serious threat to us all. The only explanation of why anyone would doubt this is simply because they will not take the time needed to study the situation a little. Its available to all on the internet if they would just take the time to study it. And don't give me that crap about "I have studied it and I know its a bunch of bull". If anyone can truthfully say that after doing a complete (open minded) study on the subject then they really need some help. They need to go back home and let their mama take care of them.

I believe most everybody including our President knows that the co2 emissions are causing SERIOUS global warming and its just a matter of a short time before they all are forced to admit to it AND establish an URGENT plan to curtail it. The sooner the better in my opinion.....our very lives are at stake.

[JuniperPark]

I'm glad to see we have at least 2 or 3 people here who believe as I do that global warming is a serious threat to us all. The only explanation of why anyone would doubt this is simply because they will not take the time needed to study the situation a little. Its available to all on the internet if they would just take the time to study it. And don't give me that crap about "I have studied it and I know its a bunch of bull". If anyone can truthfully say that after doing a complete (open minded) study on the subject then they really need some help. They need to go back home and let their mama take care of them.

I believe most everybody including our President knows that the co2 emissions are causing SERIOUS global warming and its just a matter of a short time before they all are forced to admit to it AND establish an URGENT plan to curtail it. The sooner the better in my opinion.....our very lives are at stake.

You mean you trust the SAME president that believed that Iraq attacked America onm 9.11.01? The SAME president that believed Hussain had WMD's? The SAME president that told is "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq years ago? The SAME president that was confused by who might have attacked on 9/11 after reading his briefing titled "Bin Ladin to Attack US Cities with Airliners"? The SAME president that reading "my Pet Goat" while the military was awaiting orders from the Commander In Chief? I could go on and on about the stupidity of Bush if that's your whole argument.

If so many scientsist are behind this, why can't a single person refute the facts presented by this Austrain site? How come these 'smart' scientists don't seem to even know that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas? How do they explain GROWING glaciers and FALLING sea temperatures?

Let's say this is all wrong... the only real URGENT way to protect the planet is to take immediate steps in population control. Forced sterization/abortions for anyone having more than 2 children, with severe tax penalties for each child (rather than subsidizing). That will do more for the planet that ANY solution so far. But nobody would make $$ from that, would they?

[zenlogo]

Yes Dmtalk, its nice to see a least a few people seem to have some awareness and social consciouness. I love reading things starting "I'm no scientist, but" ... then proceed to refute the beliefs of 90% of credible scientists with someone's ill considered blog. I think that our children's children breathing the polluted air, drinking the poisoned waters will consider their forefathers as criminals. or least criminally stupid. WAKE UP. THE PLANET IS DYING. I'm sorry, I get upset by this sort of casual and uninformed analysis of important, life threatening issues.

PS: JuniperPark, Co2 IS a greenhouse gas.

[Beachie]

You mean you trust the SAME president that believed that Iraq attacked America onm 9.11.01? The SAME president that believed Hussain had WMD's? The SAME president that told is "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq years ago? The SAME president that was confused by who might have attacked on 9/11 after reading his briefing titled "Bin Ladin to Attack US Cities with Airliners"? The SAME president that reading "my Pet Goat" while the military was awaiting orders from the Commander In Chief? I could go on and on about the stupidity of Bush if that's your whole argument.

If so many scientsist are behind this, why can't a single person refute the facts presented by this Austrain site? How come these 'smart' scientists don't seem to even know that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas? How do they explain GROWING glaciers and FALLING sea temperatures?

Let's say this is all wrong... the only real URGENT way to protect the planet is to take immediate steps in population control. Forced sterization/abortions for anyone having more than 2 children, with severe tax penalties for each child (rather than subsidizing). That will do more for the planet that ANY solution so far. But nobody would make $$ from that, would they?

The oil cartels won't make money from cutting down oil consumption either. The oil companies make large payments to keep politicians in their pockets. I agree with you that exponential population growth is a huge problem, possibly as big or bigger than global warming, and also an indirect cause. Some Asian countries have been forcing 1 child families for years.

CO2 is definitely accepted as the secondary greenhouse gas, after water vapour.

[H2FC]

I don't know how Juniper could possibly read anything in my post that implies I'm using Bush to support my position on global warming. Its just the opposite. Bush does not support the global warming theory and never has, but it won't be long before he will be forced to because of the up coming elections. If the Republicans want any chance at re-elections they must recognize and offer a reasonable plan to combat what 99% of the climate scientist in the world are telling us is a very serious problem, one that can destroy this earth.

Such rebuttals as the one offered by Juniper is exactly what I'm talking about when I say most people who don't believe the global warming facts are simply uninformed on the subject and need to spend a little time studing it instead of relying on "BullCrap" articles and websites as the one he referred to. The fact that he doesn't even know that co2 is the primary greenhouse gas thats causing global warming, glaciers are shrinking instead of expanding, and sea tempertures are heating instead of cooling proves my point.

BTW....I don't agree the only real way to protect the planet is to take urgent steps in population control. The best way is to begin using the technology available to us now on a large scale, even though it is very expensive. It will get cheaper as time goes by and as we use more of it. I am referring ,of course, to implimenting a hydrogen economy that will forever free us from the oil strangehold. No matter what the cost .....it's a bargain compared to the alternative.

[JuniperPark]

Global Warming has now earned it's place at http://JunkScience.com... but beware of
showing evidence contradicting the alarmists:

Wall Street Journal:
"Climate of Fear: Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists into silence."
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220

Solar activity more likely cause of warming in last century:
http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO...9/N29/EDIT.jsp

Canada was actually WARMER during medieval times:
http://www.co2science.org/scripts/CO...appicelake.jsp

From an Environmentalist:
http://www.lomborg.com/books.htm
"No reputable scientist would call Carbon Dioxide (CO2) a Greenhouse gas." OOOPS!

ABC News:
"Greenland icecap thickens despite warming" Double OOOOPS!
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...0/s1487477.htm

USA Today:
"Researchers question key global-warming study"
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...8-schulz_x.htm

Artic melting? Experts say:
"The limits on the thickness of Arctic ice are determined by how low the air temperature can get, and on how warm and fast-moving the subsurface water is. Air temperatures measured in the Arctic region show no recent warming, thus discounting the possibility that recent thinning of ice could be caused by atmospheric warming above the ice. Rather, the thinning of ice in the 1990s is clearly associated with a warming of the sub-surface ocean, as shown by the SCICEX data, caused in whole or in part by the strong NAO increasing the flow rate of Atlantic water into the Arctic Ocean.
There is nothing in the data to suggest anything but natural cycles at work."
http://www.john-daly.com/polar/arctic.htm
http://www.john-daly.com/zjiceco2.htm


Here is an amusing item, directly from a big "Global Warming Alarmist organization:
"Virginia Governor: Michaels Does Not Speak for the State; Virginia asks state climatologist to limit use of title"
Get this: Virgina is telling the SCIENTIST Patrick J. Michaels, a University of Virginia professor and state climatologist since 1980,
to HIDE THE FACTS and stay silent, so that politicians can say "no one disputes the theory".
http://www.heatisonline.org/contents...te&Cache=False

Are you getting the picture yet? Why silence your own scientists if the truth is on your side?


If anyone still wants to contend that "99% of scientists are behind the global warming theory"
I can probably find quite a bit more with a few minutes of research. Note that these links
are from news agencies and organizations around the world for those with the "It's just one
stupid Australian guy" response.

[H2FC]

I find it interesting that JuniperPark would point to a website (junkscience.com) owned and operated by a fanatic known as "The Junkman" to challenge the global warming theory. For those who don't know, the owner of this website, Steven Milloy, was on the Phillip Morris payroll for many years denying that smoking and used tabacco smoke was harmful to anyone. He is also a paid advocate of ExxonMobile Corp. in their "undercover" fight against the truth about global warming and the use of oil causing it.

The next article he offers for contradiction of the global warming theory is written by Dr. Richard S. Lindzen, a professor of meteorology at MIT, he is one of a small band of global warming skeptics used by industry to undermine and delay any kind of regulatory action meant to address the looming environmental crisis.

Lindzen was reported in 1995 to "charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels, and a speech he wrote, entitled 'Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,' was underwritten and paid for by OPEC. He is a paid adversary of global warming.

There is no need for me to continue pointing out why so many argue against global warming. Its because of the money, their livelyhood depends upon it. Global warming is real and its caused by the using of oil for energy. Its a very serious threat to our environment, to our health and to the very life of the planet we live on. It must be taken seriously. It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks about it, 99% of the climate scientist in the world say its true and thats good enough for me. My livelyhood doesn't depend on the use of oil....to the contrary, it depends on the non-use of oil...all of our lives in fact do. Its sad that anybody would sell out their childrens health and welfare....and maybe their very lives for a few dollars. Its sad but true.