Accurate WHOIS should be required for sales listings

[JuniperPark]

I thought it was already a rule here, but I don't see it in the FAQs, so it must have been at another forum.

The first clue in the vast majority of domainer scams and fraud is invalid WHOIS info.

I'm interested in a domain listed for sale on tyhis forum right now, but:

1) The domain is registered to a different country than the user selling it
2) The name / address is similar, but jumbled.
3) The email address is clearly bogus (as in no_valid_email@attworldnet.com or something similar)

Even if the seller is honest with a good reputation here, the domain may have already been hijacked without his knowledge., In this case, I sent an email to the registered address to confirm is was for sale, and DID NOT receive a response.

My suggestion in to REQUIRE accurate whois data (not privacy protected either) on domains BEFORE they can be listed for sale.

FYI, a lot of registrars (especially eNom) can be slow about getting the update 'published'. But still -- this should be done BEFORE listing the domain for sale.

[JuniperPark]

I really surprised there are no replies to this -- nobody else wants to know that domain sellers actually own the domains they are posting for sale at DNF??

[Doc]

Quite right, whois should be correct before any payments for any sale.
The part about privacy protected , not everyone can agree to it ( I got no prob. ) some people may not want to make whois public.

If it's privacy protected , one can't reply from an address such as domainname.ext @ SomePrivacyProtect.extension

Simple solution is to send an email with some code/anything to the listed email address (even if privacy protected most registrars either forward the email to the domain owner or provide means to send the owner a message ) and ask the seller to confirm code/message via pm.

[whitebark]

Well that would exclude just about every .ca domain. They are privacy protected by default by the registry to adhere to Canadian privacy laws.

[draggar]

Isn't that already a policy for ICANN? The WhoIs information has to be accurate or else you can lose the domains?

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by draggar

Isn't that already a policy for ICANN? The WhoIs information has to be accurate or else you can lose the domains?

Yes, and many domainers here ignore that a put fake info, including a fake email in the whois registry. Look at StockPhotography.org -- fake email, fake phone, incorrect country.... yet it's listed for sale here.

It also add the possibility that even if the seller DID own it, what happens if it's repossesed by ICANN after the buyer pays for it?

[draggar]

Then be evil - report them to ICANN and wait for the domain to be dropped.

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by draggar

Then be evil - report them to ICANN and wait for the domain to be dropped.

Nah, I don't want to be evil or cause a legit domain owner to lose a domain or sale.

I *DO* want not have to wonder whether the DNF user I'm buying from actually owns the domain -- and this rule would help cut down fraud.

[draggar]

The issue is that we cannot police the WhoIs information, that isn't our jurisdiction. Yes, we can ask people to keep the information accurate but even if it looks legit, it might not be.

I'm sure there are ways of them proving that they own the domain - changing the WhoIs to show it is for sale here, changing one of the DNS (4th etc.) to FOR.SALE.AT.DNF etc..?

Now - I agree, for easier sales and better transparency, people should keep accurate WhoIs information but some people are afraid of getting spammed, etc..

I've received extremely few phone calls (and it was insults because I was "competing" with another site)

I do get spam - gMail has a great spam filter (don't worry, I use another email address as the registrar contact).

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by draggar

The issue is that we cannot police the WhoIs information, that isn't our jurisdiction. Yes, we can ask people to keep the information accurate but even if it looks legit, it might not be.

I'm sure there are ways of them proving that they own the domain - changing the WhoIs to show it is for sale here, changing one of the DNS (4th etc.) to FOR.SALE.AT.DNF etc..?

Now - I agree, for easier sales and better transparency, people should keep accurate WhoIs information but some people are afraid of getting spammed, etc..

I've received extremely few phone calls (and it was insults because I was "competing" with another site)

I do get spam - gMail has a great spam filter (don't worry, I use another email address as the registrar contact).

It's already being done at other forums, so the issue of whether it CAN be done is moot. It can. Also, users can use the (R)eport function for posts with domains with bogus registrations.

[tristanperry]

Originally Posted by draggar

Then be evil - report them to ICANN and wait for the domain to be dropped.

Been there done that - it doesn't work. (And I had good reason to try and get the domain's WHOIS info changed). The domain certainly won't get dropped. The procedure is thus:

1) A complaint is lodged with ICANN about a domain. Lets say the domain is example.org, registered at Example Registrar. ICANN must reply within something like 60 days.

2) ICANN briefly review the WHOIS information. If/when they find that the WHOIS information of example.org is false (be it with a fake phone number, name, address etc) they forward the complaint to Example Registrar.

3) Example Registrar then are meant to ensure that the WHOIS information is accurate/up-to-date. This is the flaw; Example Registrar can simply ignore this.

4) At the end of the complaint process, ICANN send an automated e-mail asking for the complainant to check if the WHOIS information is now accurate. Another flaw; ICANN don't check again themselves.

5) In my case it wasn't, so I contacted back saying nothing had been changed. ICANN never followed it up and the WHOIS information is still false many months later.

So yeah, I think this rule should come into play - ICANN don't do anything about fake WHOIS information, but we should

[myst woman]

invalid email address and no resposne form that email to verify is the reddest of all red flags.

[biggedon]

Originally Posted by JuniperPark

I really surprised there are no replies to this -- nobody else wants to know that domain sellers actually own the domains they are posting for sale at DNF??

i suggested the same thing a couple of years ago, when a member was offering domains for sale, where the whois info was "shady".


was told to "mind my own business and stop trying to stifle their sales"


as usual they tried to run me out of town, but i stood my ground.


with the privacy features, as others have mentioned it would be hard to enforce and speaking truthfully... i wouldn't even want to be bothered.


members just have to do their homework.

[JuniperPark]

Anyone who cannot turn off the privacy feature while the domain is listed for sale does not have control of the domain, and therefore cannot complete a sale. It is a scam.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by JuniperPark

I thought it was already a rule here, but I don't see it in the FAQs, so it must have been at another forum.
My suggestion in to REQUIRE accurate whois data (not privacy protected either) on domains BEFORE they can be listed for sale.

Yes , it should be somewhat mandatory , atleast in those cases where privacy is not turned on.

Originally Posted by draggar

Yes, we can ask people to keep the information accurate but even if it looks legit, it might not be.

Now - I agree, for easier sales and better transparency, people should keep accurate WhoIs information but some people are afraid of getting spammed, etc..

Originally Posted by myst woman

invalid email address and no resposne form that email to verify is the reddest of all red flags.

Quite true.

Originally Posted by biggedon

i suggested the same thing a couple of years ago, when a member was offering domains for sale, where the whois info was "shady".

was told to "mind my own business and stop trying to stifle their sales"
as usual they tried to run me out of town, but i stood my ground.

members just have to do their homework.

i agree members have to do their homework. Afterall it's not possible to check every domain listed on DNF.

The only reason i wanted to raise this thread again is because , a lot of of domains listed ( including sales already over) have been repeatedly listed with false whois. It's not just isolated to one domain. i mean different names , sometimes inexistent , even states , addresses , country , phone no. etc. do not match.

Don't wish to name any member in public , so what to do in these cases ? Should we just use the report button on the post ( because as yet there is no concrete rule with regards to this)

Thanks

[JuniperPark]

No real estate company would participate in a sale where the property deed said the owner was "xxx xxxx", and if we're going to treat domaining as a 'real business', we shouldn't either.

Fake whois and privacy protection are the tools of the scam artist. Why make it easy for them?

I understand that this is policy on another forum, and has worked well. I don't see why it would not work just as well here.

[biggedon]

Originally Posted by Doc

Yes , it should be somewhat mandatory , atleast in those cases where privacy is not turned on.





Quite true.



i agree members have to do their homework. Afterall it's not possible to check every domain listed on DNF.

The only reason i wanted to raise this thread again is because , a lot of of domains listed ( including sales already over) have been repeatedly listed with false whois. It's not just isolated to one domain. i mean different names , sometimes inexistent , even states , addresses , country , phone no. etc. do not match.

Don't wish to name any member in public , so what to do in these cases ? Should we just use the report button on the post ( because as yet there is no concrete rule with regards to this)

Thanks

if you arre viewing a thread of interest and you happen to check whois, and you "know" that the whois info, is "not" accurate for the member who is advertising it for sale or asking for an appraisal, then you can:

ask or raise the question and or report the thread, including "factual" evidence...if you wish

Originally Posted by JuniperPark

No real estate company would participate in a sale where the property deed said the owner was "xxx xxxx", and if we're going to treat domaining as a 'real business', we shouldn't either.

Fake whois and privacy protection are the tools of the scam artist. Why make it easy for them?

I understand that this is policy on another forum, and has worked well. I don't see why it would not work just as well here.

all real concerns, but i just don't buy from those i don't trust

members can choose to do the same

but you need to have some level of trust within the community, though not be gullible and naive'...or lazy about the biz of domains

still, you can do all that and make a bad deal..from somebody you trusted with whois you trusted...




you feel me?

whois gonna police that?


we all have to, we have to be more observant as members, as buyers and as sellers.

as for a policy, imo...

it would be a exhausting task to pick and choose which domains to verify or not
if that burden was a staff function and duty of the forum.


the forum, potentially could bear responsibility for scams, should it/if it state/stated that it verified the whois of a member and later it was found to be fake.

now that's just my personal "non-moderator" opinion

[Doc]

Originally Posted by biggedon

if you are viewing a thread of interest and you happen to check whois, and you "know" that the whois info, is "not" accurate for the member who is advertising it for sale, then you can:

ask or raise the question and or report the thread, including "factual" evidence...if you wish

Thanks for clearing this up. I agree each & everything can't be checked. Reporting the thread makes it much easier .Done

[JuniperPark]

Originally Posted by biggedon

i

whois gonna police that?


we all have to, we have to be more observant as members, as buyers and as sellers.

as for a policy, imo...

it would be a exhausting task to pick and choose which domains to verify or not
if that burden was a staff function and duty of the forum.


the forum, potentially could bear responsibility for scams, should it/if it state/stated that it verified the whois of a member and later it was found to be fake.

now that's just my personal "non-moderator" opinion

I disagree.

The vast majority of honest sellers here already accurate WHOIS info, and the ones that don't will figure out quickly that they have to put the correct into there if they want to sell domains on DNF.

I would expect very, very few 'violations' reported, except for the scammers... and this will be a faster path to banning them from DNF.

If this isn't make policy, can we AT LEAST be allowed to post a warning in any thread where a domain being sold has fake or hidden WHOIS? Allowing scams here hurts everyone.

[nameslave]

Originally Posted by JuniperPark

If this isn't make policy, can we AT LEAST be allowed to post a warning in any thread where a domain being sold has fake or hidden WHOIS? Allowing scams here hurts everyone.

If you ask me, allowing MEMBERS to publicly flag sales threads with "questionable" or private whois would inevitably invite troll/flame. Perhaps you can simply REPORT them.

Personally, I don't like blatantly false whois either; but whois privacy is so common these days that if sellers are required to take that off in order to sell their domains HERE (DNForum), I'm afraid it would effect some backlash.