"Click Clubs"?

[Chuckles2]

I can't possibly be the first in the world to ponder this, and since I'm a noob, I'll ask here. But BEFORE I ASK MY QUESTION, I MAKE THIS STATEMENT: I'm not suggesting this is legal, ethical, or even possible, and I'm NOT saying I would do this. I am asking because I'd like to know if this phenomenon exists, and if so how it might affect advertisers, domainers, google, search engines etc. as it seems it could become a growing phenomenon if it's possible.

The question is: Do "click clubs" exist? For example: say 100 members of the club post their website links, and each website features at least one ad prominently at the top of their page. Each day, the members log in to the club's page, which displays all members' links except their own, adding a parameter to each link which specifies logged-in member's membership ID. Using this parameter and server-side scripts, members remain aware of which mambers are not participating, which can exclude them from the club. Using such a page (or other local software) Every member visits the other members' sites. (And may "or may not" click an ad.) Nobody is paid to click, and nobody clicks their own ads, but they benefit from being in the club because they get hits and clicks. Getting one's own domain added to the list requires that logons first participate after obtaining a logon, and obtaining a logon to the site would require some sort of screening, such as referrals by members, whois data verified by utility bills, or whatever.

Yikes. I realize I've described so many details that it may appear I'm considering doing this... NOT SO. I was simply pondering the likelihood of its existence by hashing out how the details would work.

As far as I know (and I know jack squat) since in this scenario nobody is paid to click (nor required to click) and nobody clicks their own ads, I'm not aware of a law that would be broken, although I'm sure it would become illegal quickly, if it's not already, if this practice became common.

I welcome any thoughts. Has this concept been discussed before on these forums? Clearly I know if this became a common problem, we would all be in trouble, since advertisers would pay less and less over time.

Sorry to be so "nervous" in asking this question. I only seek to better understand how the industry could evolve if this happens, and how likely it is to occur.

 

[Duckinla]

Click fraud exists, whether it is in this form or another. There are "pay to read" companies that pay people to basically click on your ads. Although it's fraud, there is nothing illegal about it. It's your computer, you have a right to click on ads that show on your screen. That doesn't mean it's right or ethical though. It's up to the industry to police itself. Ad providers can recognize when a large number of clicks are coming from a small amount of ISP numbers. And of course they have to stop it to maintain value for the advertisers. Otherwise the game is over for all of us.

 

[Chuckles2]

To the best of my knowledge click fraud is either where people are paid to click (directly) or they click their own ads. Wouldn't this be a loophole because neither is directly occurring?

And in fact, wouldn't it be pretty hard to stop if there were, say, 1000 members using ISP's everywhere? Would the club itself be illegal?

 

[Duckinla]

But consider that a domain suddenly gets lots of traffic with 100% click-through rate and no conversions. That becomes obvious very quickly. Non of it is technically "illegal" though.

 

[Chuckles2]

But consider that a domain suddenly gets lots of traffic with 100% click-through rate and no conversions. That becomes obvious very quickly. Non of it is technically "illegal" though.

Say members only click about 30% of the time they visit, in their own interest. And the "conversion" you refer to would be felt by the advertisers (bad for them). But the rate would not be 0%, since they would also get clicks from other locations. And who's to say the members won't buy products?

I know "paid visit" companies exist illegally (which deliver garbage for the domainer) and I know "guaranteed traffic companies" exist (from spyware and such which also delivers garbage for the domainer) and I know ("expired domain traffic"), companies exist (which is mostly crap, but can include some targeting of real users)... But do clubs among domainers as I've described, serving mutual interest exist?

It could be done such that there's excellent conversion for the domainer (ad clicks) at around 30%, but very poor turnover for advertisers (sales).

Ah, I think this may be the most likely reason it would fail: I'm aware that Google notes the time that the ad was presented, and they also note the time that the ad was clicked. If they note that the difference is consistently only a few milliseconds, that's probably a HUGE red flag.

For this reason, I don't believe it would work, but I invite other thoughts.

 

[namestrands]

This debate serves only one purpose and that is to provide a FAQ for potential scammers.

I would imagine they all exist in one form or another, and without a massive amount of data there is no real way to calculate the analytics involved. But there are some real tell tale signs that you have not included and frankly I have no intention in sharing...

The facts are you may try to gain money by means that would be against the Terms and Conditions of a program, just remember that the parking programs and the feed providers have a lot more time and resources and a whole lot more knowledge.

 

[Chuckles2]

I hope it's not a "debate". My intentions are sincere. When the thought occurred to me I became concerned, not hopeful.

My "mostly confident" opinion at this point (for the reason in red above, among others that come to mind) is that if the phenomenon exists, it wouldn't last long, and their canceled accounts would prevent the same people from making money the "normal" way.

I appreciate the responses, and I hope that if anyone reads this considering such a scheme, they will be discouraged by what they read.

 

[myst woman]

But are click clubs limited to ads? Look at the way Associated content promotes users to click articles and rate them for increased compensation.

 

[DNQuest.com]

Actually, it can be considered illegal activity. Why you ask? when we sign up for our Adsense, there is a thing called Terms of Service (TOS), within the 71734 lines of TOS, there exsist clauses which prohibit the practice of click fraud. When you enter this agreement, you enter a binding contract. If you break the agreement, you have performed an illegal act, it is not a criminal act, but a civil act. At this point, Adsense would just delete your account and any "real" money you have in that account is gone. They can do that under the TOS.

 

[Chuckles2]

Good point. In fact, I'm no lawyer but I bet they would have solid grounds to claim even more damages against the operators of the club. (beyond cancelled accounts and taking money remaining in their accounts) I think unlike the club members, it could be argued that the operators of the club had planned a malicious, orchestrated attack against the company to diminish the quality of their product, and the company was damaged by bad press, etc.

I wouldn't be surprised if a judge or jury would be happy to rip them apart in a suit.

 

[namestrands]

It would be very unlikely that a program like google would sue for damages, due to the fact that they may have to release information pertaining as to how widespread it may be, which would no doubt do more damage to its relationship with its advertisers.

The Terms of Service, does give a parking program and publisher legal recourse in the event of a breach. The breach would most likely be Civil but not Criminal.

Saying that, one could argue that the purpose of the Club was an attempt to commit fraud.

 

[Chuckles2]

That might depend on how it goes. If the press is: "They tried a scam, but they were caught within days, never made a penny and they're about to lose a fortune" the press could be positive for Google.

 

[Focus]

Saying that, one could argue that the purpose of the Club was an attempt to commit fraud.

Or a "conspiracy to commit fraud" ....and conspiracy charges ARE felonies in the United States..

 

[namestrands]

That might depend on how it goes. If the press is: "They tried a scam, but they were caught within days, never made a penny and they're about to lose a fortune" the press could be positive for Google.

Which would mean google would have to prove that the fraud did in fact take place. The meer proof could mean that google would have to release potential trade secrets in order to argue its case.

Even if the press did go well for google, it would only be one victory. As an advertiser I would think if the brevity of such a fraud has been discovered, then I would have to ask "How long has it gone on for". I would then have a case against google.

 

[Chuckles2]

I believe trade secrets can usually be protected by a sealed courtroom upon the very reasonable request of a judge before presenting the evidence. (I reitterate I'm not a lawyer.)

If I were Google, (and if the fraud was known to be brief and the list of affected advertisers was short) I'd be inclined to credit any affected advertisers' accounts generously.

 

[MacyT.]

Hi, I was reading this interesting thread and quite frankly, wouldn't be able to conduct in such 'illegal' activity as most of it sounds too complicated and way too time consuming.

However, I do have a more innocent question in regards to 'click fraud'. Is it considered fraud if I click on ads on my own parked pages? I'm not clicking on each ad tons of times or anything...probably once on maybe 3 or 4 of 8 to 10 listed.

The reason I click on them is because I was curious what the ads were - wanted to make sure they were relevant and was curious as to what their websites looked like. I've done this for optimizing purposes and occasionally have changed keywords which seemed to help with revenue.

I also have typed in my own web page to make sure the changed I made took place in a certain period of time. I figured they were infrequent, that it wouldn't be an issue - as I figure many domain parkers did this.

But I sincerely was not trying to add click thru revenue by clicking on my own ads. Is there a way that the service provider can just exclude clicks from my ISP? That way I could check out my page as much as I want and not worry about manipulated stats? Thanks.

 

[snicksnack]

Is it considered fraud if I click on ads on my own parked pages? I'm not clicking on each ad tons of times or anything...probably once on maybe 3 or 4 of 8 to 10 listed.


it is again against the TOS.

and if you want to check where the ads lewads to, you can always type the url into your browser.

 

[DomainMagnate]

Click fraud exists, whether it is in this form or another. There are "pay to read" companies that pay people to basically click on your ads. Although it's fraud, there is nothing illegal about it. It's your computer, you have a right to click on ads that show on your screen. That doesn't mean it's right or ethical though. It's up to the industry to police itself. Ad providers can recognize when a large number of clicks are coming from a small amount of ISP numbers. And of course they have to stop it to maintain value for the advertisers. Otherwise the game is over for all of us.

This is different
In paid to click, paid to read etc programs advertisers know what they pay for. They know users get paid to click/read and thats why it's usually very cheap to them.

Click fraud is a big problem for adsense and other ad networks: http://adwords.blogspot.com/2007/02/invalid-clicks-googles-overall-numbers.html

~MG