Global Warming to Cost TRILLIONS$$

[Duckinla]

WTF do you two have against each other any way? Keep the emotion out of the posts, try not to direct them at one person too often, add a little humor from time-to-time, that's my suggestion. It's fun to get excited and angry from time-to-time but it's best to disagree without creating serious adversaries. If you met in person you'd probably just have some drinks and realize that neither position is completely irrational.

 

[H2FC]

hey mr. duck.....in reference to your insulting response to my post I want to assure you I think that my mack truck/global warming analogy is just perfect. I can't think of a better one. If anything, the global warming threat is more serious than being run over by a mack truck because it has the potential of destroying us all and everything we love about this planet. Since I'm not worth discussing issues with I won't be expecting any more responses from you toward my postings with your uninformed silly comments. Thank you an have a nice day.

Quote:
"IF" I'm standing on the highway and see a mack truck coming straight toward me I might say "IF" that truck hits me I will be dead.....but at the same time I will be making every effort to get out of its way.

I'm sorry, that's the most appropriate analogy you could find?

"IF" you think man-made global warming is as sure as a Mack truck on a highway, you have lost all objectivity and are not worth discussing issues with.

 

[Irish31]

If you look chronologically through the thread Duckinla, I was chiming in with my opinion on the topic like everyone else and "boom".


I have nothing aganist anyone, but I think i'm not exaggerating when I was sort of attacked on my view, and it went from "polite discussion" to "off topic flame war bait".

Does that annoy me? Yes, because I almost view that as Trolling. This is the last place I want to see that stuff happening. There is a difference from stating "hey, your opinion, I don't agree with it, and here is why" and "rant rant attack your opinion sucks, full of holes, off topic rant, etc".

That's what I was viewing his as. Bringing in things that had no direct relevance to the discussion. I've seen him do it many times to other people on other threads. I can only conclude the guy is either two bricks short a duplexe or has a massive chip on his shoulder.


I'm not going to get nasty over this, it's just a waste of time, everyone is entitled to their opinion and it wouldn't be the first time someone on this board gave me a different view on something and I actually ended up agreeing with them. But you know what? It wasn't because the opinion was ill-formed, focus lacking and incoherent.

I'm actually surprised a topic like this has spawned such inspired conversation!


Jay

 

[Beachie]

If current trends of overfishing and pollution continue, the populations of just about all seafood face collapse by 2048.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/11/02/seafood.crisis.ap/index.html

 

[tas38]

I think being greener will help the world make money, by people buying new greener stuff to replace what they got. And save lots of money to boot, the only ones that get hurt money wise would be big oil.

It's not like oil is dirt cheap, and that it will not go up anymore. All that will fuel new markets, big incs are already open to being greener to save money. The gov't will have to help small places, and ave workers replace old stuff with much greener stuff. I know new markets are not sitting by right now, they do indeed know there will be big money to be made.

And they know that money can be made only if, they can save people money going ahead. Right now they have a working model, to take carbon from big power plants. And take it and put it way down under oil wells, and it makes the oil stuck in the ground and rocks release. This gets much more oil from the ground, they said it will keep the well putting oil for 20 more years.

And the out put is way higher as well, that is killing 2 birds with one stone. They are also taking dirt that has oil in it, and making oil from that and the USA is buying most of it already. Canada doing this right now, also the germans are making houses, use only a small % of oil to heat and cool a home.

And they got people living in them already, and it really does work and best of all. They can do it to older houses pretty cheap, they went from €700 a year to just €100 worth of oil to heat and cool it. And it don't cost all that much to do it, meaning big saving of money and CO2 going into the air.

Here is about it on this site, see for your self just think of how much oil would be saved, doing that to every house and all new houses can be built using this stuff easy. And look at the new market that open up, as I said I beleave it will save us alot of money going greener.

http://physicsweb.org/articles/world/15/7/11

 

[H2FC]

I think that referenced story is great. Changing to an oil free society will create many new businesses. The hydrogen economy will prove much more profitable over time than what we have now, not only in financial terms but in helping to curb world wars, especially with our problems in the middle east, China, India, etc. Without a new hydrogen economy we are definitely heading for world war 111.

 

[tas38]

I do notice that other countrys are taking the lead so far, the USA may feel it will cost them to much now. But they are not looking at what can be made on it, and they will surly lose alot of money for that in the end.

It's not really losing any money at all, it's about making wise investments, and these wise investments will surly have big returns. The gov't will also get big returns, as things start booming in the new market that is coming. Peoples eyes are on big oil, but big oil only cares about big oil and getting your money.

Like GE has a light out that only takes 26 watts, but has the out put of 100 watts. In the past these lights where pure junk, but this time they really do what they say. I'm using them right now, and am replacing all my light with them. They last much longer, and they are very brite and save me all kinds of money and trouble.

All the walmarts have these lights for sale, but yet most people never even take notice how brite they are this time. Even though walmart have them on disply at the stores, and are surly the way to go to save money and the pain of changing lights all the time. And they are much much greener, so untill the guy next door says WOW my electric bill went down. And then they say oh my bill went up, they will still have their eye on their gas tank.

So it only takes 260 watts, to get the same out put of 1000 watts of the older lights. And it last much longer, so you don't have to keep changing them so much like the older ones. They last 12,000 hours, so you save money even buying them over the older 100 watt lights even. Trust me these lights are a no brainer, and a win win all around only big oil don't like them.

 

[JuniperPark]

Reminder: hydrogen is NOT an energy source. It takes more energy to create pure hydrogen than it puts out. This is just someone trying to sell you a new type of engine.

Same with electric cars -- they are NOT "pollution free", they must be charged with ELECTRICITY -- and where does most electricity come from? burning OIL and COAL.

 

[H2FC]

Reminder: hydrogen is NOT an energy source. It takes more energy to create pure hydrogen than it puts out. This is just someone trying to sell you a new type of engine.

Same with electric cars -- they are NOT "pollution free", they must be charged with ELECTRICITY -- and where does most electricity come from? burning OIL and COAL.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier just as oil/gasoline is an energy carrier.
Hydrogen is not "created". Its in our air and water and as an energy carrier it is the most abundant source of clean energy on our planet. When H2 is separated from oxygen by the use of renewable energy such as wind, water power, solar, biomass, etc. there is no pollution as a result. H2 also produces more than twice the amount of energy as an equivalent amount of oil. However, most pure H2 is presently produced by the use of fossil fuels and that does cause co2 pollution. Great strides are being made toward the production of H2 without the use of fossil fuels. That will happen as our new H2 economy progresses and larger amounts of H2 are needed to replace fossil fuels. It is possible now....expensive, but possible and will get cheaper because of the scale of production economics.

 

[tas38]

I think the stepping stone is E85, it's a no brainer and does what it need to untill H2 is ready, at a price where it's not a problem at all.

E85 autos are here already, and in a short time we could have E85 at work for us. And again it will save us tons of money, older cars could be changed over cheap and easy. It would not be a hard ship to anyone, but big oil as it would cut into the oil sales. The auto makers got the mixed fuel cars already, they can use gas or E85.

So in short E85 will save us lots of money ( pretty much the same price as gas, only gets way more milage ), and is much greener as well as easy to change over with out a hard ship. It buy us the time, and saving as well as a much greener auto.

 

[Duckinla]

Hydrogen is not "created". Its in our air and water and as an energy carrier it is the most abundant source of clean energy on our planet.

I think the issue is that Hydrogen energy still has to be "created" in that there must be a process involved in extracting the hydrogen and turning it into an energy source.

I've heard the same issue raised about using corn as a fuel source. From what I understand it can be efficient only if used locally where it is produced. but once you've had to transport it, you've actually become less efficient than if you just put gasoline into cars.

I think greener energy sources are very important for the future. The problem will be overcoming an infrastructure that is built around the current system. That will be very difficult and expensive.

 

[VioxxLawyers]

"Poor countries are expected to be hit hardest by global warming"
Extract from the BBC News article.

Rich countries don't hurry to clean the planet because global warming will do it perfectly. Our planet is overpopulated, things get worse every decade, and catastrophes/wars will fix the problem. It's not ethical, but who said nature had to be fair to humans, since we are not fair to it?!

Not trying to be mean or sarcastic, just realistic.

 

[JuniperPark]

Hydrogen is an energy carrier just as oil/gasoline is an energy carrier.
Hydrogen is not "created". Its in our air and water and as an energy carrier it is the most abundant source of clean energy on our planet. When H2 is separated from oxygen by the use of renewable energy such as wind, water power, solar, biomass, etc. there is no pollution as a result. H2 also produces more than twice the amount of energy as an equivalent amount of oil. However, most pure H2 is presently produced by the use of fossil fuels and that does cause co2 pollution. Great strides are being made toward the production of H2 without the use of fossil fuels. That will happen as our new H2 economy progresses and larger amounts of H2 are needed to replace fossil fuels. It is possible now....expensive, but possible and will get cheaper because of the scale of production economics.

As Duckinla said, the point is it takes MORE energy (aka burning oil) to separate the hydrogen than you will get from burning that same amount of hydrogen. In other words you'll burn less fossil fuel (and damage the planet less) by using gasoline in your car than hydrogen. YOU POLLUTE -MORE- WITH A HYDROGEN PROCESS! Same with electric cars -- where does that electric come from??

Just because the pollution is coming out of a distant smokestack at the power plant rather than your car's tailpipe it doesn't mean you're polluting less -- it means you are polluting MORE.

As the ethanol -- this has been studied as well, and even if we cover the earth with crops (destroying the eco-system, by the way!) we still could not produce enough ethanol to satisfy current demand.

Population control and reduction is the ONLY way to begin to stop destroying the planet. It's absurd to allow the stupidity of religion and their fear of contraception continue. Think things are bad now, with 6 billion people? In a few years we'll be 12 billion, and in your lifetime 20 billion. We can start now, with severe penalties against anyone producing more than 2 children, and great financial compensation for anyone choosing NOT to reproduce.

THAT's a real answer... not burning more oil to create a small amount of hydrogen, or destroying the ecosystem by turning all land into farms for ethanol.

Don't want to deal with the real answer? Don't want to confront the real problem? Then don't try to tell everyone else to change.

I think the stepping stone is E85, it's a no brainer and does what it need to untill H2 is ready, at a price where it's not a problem at all.

E85 autos are here already, and in a short time we could have E85 at work for us. And again it will save us tons of money, older cars could be changed over cheap and easy. It would not be a hard ship to anyone, but big oil as it would cut into the oil sales. The auto makers got the mixed fuel cars already, they can use gas or E85.

So in short E85 will save us lots of money ( pretty much the same price as gas, only gets way more milage ), and is much greener as well as easy to change over with out a hard ship. It buy us the time, and saving as well as a much greener auto.

Bad news -- TCO (total cost of ownership) is far higher on the hybrids. The money you saved on fuel will be spent on higher maintenance costs because of they have more moving parts, and that battery you are carrying is a biohazard far more dangerous that lead acid, and you'll have to got more than one. You will cause more fuel to be burned from the manufacture of the new car ad extra parts, so it's not "green", it's a net loss to the environment over a normal gas buring car. Great article on this on msnbc.com.

 

[H2FC]

As Duckinla said, the point is it takes MORE energy (aka burning oil) to separate the hydrogen than you will get from burning that same amount of hydrogen. In other words you'll burn less fossil fuel (and damage the planet less) by using gasoline in your car than hydrogen. YOU POLLUTE -MORE- WITH A HYDROGEN PROCESS! Same with electric cars -- where does that electric come from??

Just because the pollution is coming out of a distant smokestack at the power plant rather than your car's tailpipe it doesn't mean you're polluting less -- it means you are polluting MORE.

As the ethanol -- this has been studied as well, and even if we cover the earth with crops (destroying the eco-system, by the way!) we still could not produce enough ethanol to satisfy current demand.

Population control and reduction is the ONLY way to begin to stop destroying the planet. It's absurd to allow the stupidity of religion and their fear of contraception continue. Think things are bad now, with 6 billion people? In a few years we'll be 12 billion, and in your lifetime 20 billion. We can start now, with severe penalties against anyone producing more than 2 children, and great financial compensation for anyone choosing NOT to reproduce.

THAT's a real answer... not burning more oil to create a small amount of hydrogen, or destroying the ecosystem by turning all land into farms for ethanol.

Don't want to deal with the real answer? Don't want to confront the real problem? Then don't try to tell everyone else to change.



Bad news -- TCO (total cost of ownership) is far higher on the hybrids. The money you saved on fuel will be spent on higher maintenance costs because of they have more moving parts, and that battery you are carrying is a biohazard far more dangerous that lead acid, and you'll have to got more than one. You will cause more fuel to be burned from the manufacture of the new car ad extra parts, so it's not "green", it's a net loss to the environment over a normal gas buring car. Great article on this on msnbc.com.

Hi Juniper....Boy!....what a smart and great simple answer to the worlds global warming problems! Hey....that even solves the population problems the world has while it cuts way down on the use and cost of fossil fuels.

You really need to pass this solution on to those who are wasting billions of $$ on stupid tech trying to impliment things like the hydrogen economy. Let's see, you better tell all the state governments, especially California, Connecticut, Ohio, North and South Carolina, NewYork, etc....heck, you better just tell them all since they are all involved and spending hundreds of millions each on new H2 tech. Then be sure to tell all the world's countries involved with it. They obviously are pretty dumb spending all that money for nothing..and don't forget the hundreds (maybe thousands worldwide) of private companies such as Ballard, Plug Power, Quantrum, Fuel Cell Energy, etc. Remember to tell Sir Richard Branson before he wastes 3 billion of his money. And ...oh yes, the major climate scientist of the world (99% of them anyway) should be told not worry about anything and to quit wasting all that money on such silly reports they have been handing out.

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. Apparently all these people are as ignorance as I am to think we need to stop burning oil as quickly as possible in order to save our planet. Thanks for your input...you made my day.

 

[Irish31]

While I do not know the specifics ( I could find out if I asked him), my buddy is finishing his degree in physics, majoring in environmental physics, and says within the next decade, we will have created the technology to generate hydrogen energy at an astounding rate, without the pollutants.

Hes in talks with a few big energy companies now about jobs, and they are all moving towards it already.

Again, it's all just small talk, any tech details he gave me went over my head, the convo was at 3 A.M, but he know his stuff.

 

[JuniperPark]

Hi Juniper....Boy!....what a smart and great simple answer to the worlds global warming problems! Hey....that even solves the population problems the world has while it cuts way down on the use and cost of fossil fuels.

You really need to pass this solution on to those who are wasting billions of $$ on stupid tech trying to impliment things like the hydrogen economy. Let's see, you better tell all the state governments, especially California, Connecticut, Ohio, North and South Carolina, NewYork, etc....heck, you better just tell them all since they are all involved and spending hundreds of millions each on new H2 tech. Then be sure to tell all the world's countries involved with it. They obviously are pretty dumb spending all that money for nothing..and don't forget the hundreds (maybe thousands worldwide) of private companies such as Ballard, Plug Power, Quantrum, Fuel Cell Energy, etc. Remember to tell Sir Richard Branson before he wastes 3 billion of his money. And ...oh yes, the major climate scientist of the world (99% of them anyway) should be told not worry about anything and to quit wasting all that money on such silly reports they have been handing out.

I could go on and on but I think you get the picture. Apparently all these people are as ignorance as I am to think we need to stop burning oil as quickly as possible in order to save our planet. Thanks for your input...you made my day.

Ok, we discussed the science of what's been going on, now let's discuss how they will make money. You keep saying they are "wasting" money... NOT AT ALL! They are developing new things for you to BUY! By pretending to create things that are 'good for the environment', 'green', or whatever want to call it, they get MILLIONS in free advertising from the publicity/news/'green' organizations. All of the things you've discussed are designed to make the sellers very wealthy, whether it's a hydrogen device, electric car, or whatever. So if they put $10 million into building this new thing, and stand to make billions in profits after years of free advertising, I certainly don't think they're "stupid", just unethical.

Hey I'm all for REAL directions on improving the world and better energy sources (nuclear is #1, solar #2, hydro where available), but not the BS stuff that is very temporary and just to make money for a few stockholders.

Not willing to address the population explosion, huh? That's like you noticing one room of your house is on fire, and instead of stopping the spread, saying "I need to develop more efficient fire extinguishers!". No, you need to STOP THE FIRE FROM SPREADING. Only population control will do that... otherwise you're just playing with fire extinguishers while your house burns down.

 

[tas38]

It don't cost that much more to have a mixed fuel auto, they been making them and selling them to incs. Now why would a inc and local gov't's, buy them if they cost so much more to own. It's not what they been saying, they have said they are saving money.

I looked and my 2001 mercy sable had a counter part, mixed fuel auto and so did carvans even. E85 can easy cut 30% of the gas usage with in a short time, the porblem is gas stations don't have it. Big oil will do everything they can, to stop E85 fom being used as it cuts into gas sales then.

And no E85 will not make it to where we don't need gas, but you can add it as a part to every gallion of gas for any autos. That alone makes it worth the trouble, and auto makers have been making mixed fuel cars for some time now. So we can cut gas usage by 30% with in 2 years easy with E85, but because it can't stop gas usage some think we should not use it at all.

I'll tell you what is need to get using E85, to cut gas usage by 30% and it's not that much at all. The USA fed gov't needs to get behind it, gas stations need a new tank to hold it. And the biggest problem is, getting big oil to supply it to gas stations. That is it, auto makers only need to make more of them. The mixed fuel autos do not cost much more, and pay of them self in short order.

Even old autos that are not mixed fuel autos, can run a % of E85 mixed in the gas just fine. Mixed fuel autos can use gas or E85 or a mix of both, and it would not cost anymore then a reg gas autos, after they start pumping them out. Yes big oil rule us, we should worried about them rising the price of oil. But that is the biggest reason to start going away from oil usage, and get much greener as it will save us lots of money as well.

People saying we can not supply all the needs with E85, so we should not replace gas usage with it by 30%. Just don't work, it's a great stepping stone and gives people a choice. And it would save people money, it's a investment that gives a great return. And the mixed fuel autos, can use gas or E85 meaning people have a choice. And it's the same autos, only a little different setup is all.

 

[stew2yk]

How much would it cost to invent new sources of energy or harness just 0.01% of the suns power????

 

[tas38]

It's better to ask.....

How much is all the energy market worth right now, then ask your self how it compairs to all other markets.

It is the biggest, market there is bar none.

 

[Ed30]

Recent press release from the US Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works:

http://epw.senate.gov/pressitem.cfm?party=rep&id=264777