Paypal

[uncle]

This is what I received from one of my sponsors:

'We have recently been warned by numerous people that PayPal is no longer a safe method of paying out to affiliates in large amounts. This is due to fraudulent practices by PayPal when it comes to large amounts of money, such as freezing accounts for \'fraud\' and other supposed problems in order to keep your money, and deduct from your accounts further. We are taking security measures to ensure that PayPal does not cause any disruption of our business by debiting our accounts without authorization (we have no idea why they would as we only pay out of our accounts) and we advise that all of you examine your transactions to ensure that there is no behavior that could be seen as suspicious by PayPal.

For affiliates earning in excess of $1,000 per week we strongly suggest that you change your payout method to another instant form such as wire transfer, Federal Express, or possibly Western Union. Wire transfers are 100% safe and guaranteed, and accepted internationally, and we send out many each week. Please notify us at staff@volumebrokers.com if you would like to change your payout method.


For more information on the problems with PayPal you can visit www.paypalwarning.com or do an internet search for sites dealing with PayPal problems. Please do not take these issues lightly, from this day forward we will NOT compensate any webmasters who have their PayPal accounts disabled or otherwise frozen for any reason. As we have stated we will still provide PayPal as a payment option for our webmasters, but at their own risk. However based on the statements of close associates, our own gathering of evidence, and the websites devoted to the fraudulent activity of the company, we do feel that PayPal is engaged in widespread fraud, and we do not want to see any of our affiliates fall victim to this.'

This is all true. My account has been restricted for no reason, too.

****ing thieves

 

[mole]

Thanks for the heads up, uncle. I have been hearing a lot of rumblings about PayPal too.

 

I think there is PayPalsucks.com for this
Still, if you withdraw your funds as soon as you get them, you won't have problems.

 

[uncle]

paypalsucks.com has been there for a long time but it's the recent paypal's activity I'm talking about. They seem to be freezing lots of user accounts now. This hasn't gone unnoticed in the community.

Reminds me of Afternic not releasing members' payments, but in Paypal's case we're taking about MAJOR cash.

Fortunately, Paypal is being sued in 4 states. Maybe that will heal the situation.

if you withdraw your funds as soon as you get them, you won't have problems

they want to freeze your money, not an empty account. Suppose you make a sale, try to withdraw your funds and that's when they restrict your account.. You have no control over this.

The sad thing is that Paypal used to be a convenient way to handle sales. But now that they've gone all out, it's time to reconsider, I guess


http://www.paypalwarning.com/WallOfShame/

 

Just curious, why do you think they do this? It's not a plus for their line of business.

 

[DnPowerful]

They do it because they are a spectacular source of money laundering, and because they are not FDIC insured and because law enforcement are all over them as a result, so much that they must be extra careful to stop the tributaries of fraud.

Many people are using their accounts and their offshore-like debit cards to port around money and avoid taxes. Banks that are under the regular umbrella of federal laws have ways to deal with such things; Paypal must convince federal investigators that they're on top of it, or face the music.

I think that the rise of lawsuits and public grumblings will force Paypal to either come under the rubric of bank laws, or be especially vigilant. I personally think, much like Napster, they are using their renegade status to become a monster, without those pesky regulations, only to slowly accomodate outside regulation once it doesn't matter anymore.

I have their Mastercard and simply use it to leach money out of my account. But guess what? It's also dead convenient, and creates a cycle in which you want to sell more crap to fill up the card (it's a debit card, of course). Sound familiar?

Paypal knows exactly what it's doing. All those dumb Wired articles of years back about Digicash couldn't have seen Paypal...

 

I see.
But wasn't there a recent ruling stating that PayPal is NOT a bank, therefore they have not the obligations for scrutiny etc that a bank would undergo?

 

[DnPowerful]

It's a funny contradiction, but there's only so long they can continue acting like a bank without being regulated, and I'm sure federal investigators essentially say: Look, either you let us go through your books whenever we want to cut down on Internet fraud, or we'll make it politically impossible for you to operate as you're currently configured.

You have to remember that there's probably extraordinary pressure exerted by existing real-world banks who are desparately envious of Paypal's success.

So, ultimately, Paypal knows that better to satisfy the devil you know than the regulator you don't.

 

[uncle]

DnPowerful, this is all true. Apart from that they definitely freeze people's funds on purpose to profit from it.

Their recent actions are gonna have to harm their reputation if they don't stop this any time soon and they deserve it for the total lack of respect for the customer. No customer service, no phone #, no nothing but quick to block accounts

 

[NameBox]

Don't forget that PayPal is partially owned by a bank ... Deutsche Bank! The main issue is PayPal's allowance for an outstanding credit balance.

Similar services, such as eBay's Billpoint don't have these same issues since they drop down any outstanding credit into your bank account every 1-2 days. Hence, no issues about not being registered as a bank, or allowing an offshore pool of money. Interestingly, Billpoint was started by Wells Fargo Bank, and later partly sold to eBay. WF chose to exit the business however ....

Initially, PayPal sought to make money out of the outstanding float in user's accounts, and didn't plan on charging transaction fees. Now, fees are the only real revenue stream, yet it still is grossly unprofitable.

I can see PayPal being coopted by a bank or banks, given that its slowing moving into quasi banking services (credit cards, pseudo credit/atm debit cards, etc), and eventually taking on a full banking charter ...

OR ...

Becoming a purely transaction driven service with little or no float allowed given the pressures by governments concerned about money laundering, tax evasion, etc. They have already registered operating divisions in many countries, and have been cooperating with taxation authorities in those jurisdictions.

Remember, most countries insist that any foreign assets be reported on income tax statements ... I wonder how many people are using PayPal as a tax evasion strategy (only to get a quick kick upside the head by the Inland Revenue or IRS, etc., eventually :cry: )

I've heard the horror stories, but after many transactions over the past few years, I've never had a problem. I think that if your transactions are justifiable, they are perfectly reasonable. Besides, 20 + million users can't be all wrong ...

 

[NameBox]

Originally posted by uncle
DnPowerful, this is all true. Apart from that they definitely freeze people's funds on purpose to profit from it.

Their recent actions are gonna have to harm their reputation if they don't stop this any time soon and they deserve it for the total lack of respect for the customer. No customer service, no phone #, no nothing but quick to block accounts

I hear this all the time. No phone number?? I've spoken to them on numerous occasions ... they even have a TOLL FREE number! Customer service has always been prompt and courteous ...

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists are involved in these anti PayPal debates. I simply don't know a single legitimate merchant, etc., that has had any problems with PayPal ...

Problems could exist, but there are two sides to every story

 

[Anthony Ng]

NameBox, my first hand experience with PayPal is that their customer service sucks. I spoke with them a couple of times over the phone, and these people are not helping at all. And you know what, they are now hiding their telephone number altogether. (To verify this, your assignment today is to post the url of their phone number, be it toll-free or local). Good luck.

 

[NameBox]

Originally posted by nameslave
NameBox, my first hand experience with PayPal is that their customer service sucks. I spoke with them a couple of times over the phone, and these people are not helping at all. And you know what, they are now hiding their telephone number altogether. (To verify this, your assignment today is to post the url of their phone number, be it toll-free or local). Good luck.

Your experience differs from my own. Sorry not to take any "assignments" from you nameslave ....

Since you ARE confirming that they can be reached by telephone, why do you need the telephone number posted? Unless your story about speaking to them a couple of times ....

Anyone needing their number (nameslave exluded heh, heh) can PM me ... their number is live and active ... called yesterday matter of fact!

 

[Anthony Ng]

They USED TO post a toll-free number on their website, but now they don't. And if anyone is in need of one, simply go to http://www.paypalsucks.com/faqs.shtml. (Frankly, I don't know if these numbers are good or not, since I last called them months ago and have forgotten the number I dialed.)

Does the fact that they are now hiding their telephone number mean anything? Does it mean better customer service?

* Edited URL: the period immediately after the URL WAS included in the hyperlink by this board automatically.

 

[uncle]

20 + million users can't be all wrong ...

absolutely not. 10+ million Network Solutions customers can't be wrong, either

I hear this all the time. No phone number?? I've spoken to them on numerous occasions ... they even have a TOLL FREE number! Customer service has always been prompt and courteous ...

where on their web site is it listed ?

after many transactions over the past few years, I've never had a problem.

be patient

I wonder how many conspiracy theorists are involved

There's always those vicious conspiracy theorists..

the Earth is flat

 

[NameBox]

Uncle, what are your experiences exactly? We've processed thousands of transactions through PayPal, Billpoint, Bidpay, etc., etc., and have found PayPal to be as good as any service, especially given fraud protection and insurance offered. Only Bidpay.com offers better fraud protection. Try to get a chargeback settled with any cc processor (billpoint included) and then post your experiences.

BTW, PayPal is FDIC insured up to $100,000 via "pass through" insurance. Further, there is no reason that you "have" to maintain a balance at PayPal:

http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/fdic-outside

FDIC Pass-Through Insurance

You do not need to keep funds with PayPal in order to use our service. If you do hold a balance, you can do so in two ways: (1) PayPal, as your agent, will place your funds in a pooled account at an unaffiliated FDIC-insured bank or savings institution, which is eligible for pass-through FDIC insurance coverage; or (2) you can elect to earn a return on your funds by enrolling to invest all funds that you receive into the PayPal Money Market Fund. The PayPal Money Market Fund is not FDIC insured, not guaranteed by any bank and may lose value. PayPal keeps a record of the amount of your balances, which you can check by logging in to your account through the PayPal Web site at any time.

If you do not enroll in the Money Market Fund, then in the unlikely event that an FDIC- insured bank in which we place your money fails, your balance placed at the bank would be subject to FDIC pass-through deposit insurance coverage, along with any other deposits you hold at that bank, up to a total of $100,000. Pass-through deposit coverage is contingent upon PayPal maintaining accurate records and on determinations of the FDIC as receiver at the time of a future receivership of any bank at which we place your funds. FDIC pass-through deposit insurance protects you only against the failure of the bank at which PayPal places your funds, and does NOT protect you against PayPal's insolvency. Through the terms of our User Agreement, we believe that your funds will also be protected from any claims of PayPal's creditors and will be returned to you even in the unlikely event of a PayPal insolvency.

You can access a list of the banks where we place your money here.

As of March 12, 2002, your available balance funds are held at the following institutions: Wells Fargo Bank, N.A., Comerica Bank - California, and Bank of America, N.A.

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Now, since nameslave admitted that he "lost" the phone number, here it is 1-888-221-1161

uncle .. why do you think the world is flat? Exit the 15th Century and join us in the 21st :laugh:

 

[uncle]

my experience is that my account has been frozen out of the ****ing blue. I only use it to buy and sell domains, don't sell anything on ebay, never gave anybody any reason to file a complaint.

So I log in to my account the other day only to find out it has been restricted. I cannot withdraw my money or make any payments. I can still receive funds, of course.

I email them but my email comes back with an automated response that no correspondation will take place until I send them a nice set of my most personal documents.

Then I start looking for their phone number on their web site, and guess what, it's not there. Is it?

SHOW ME WHERE.

Then I start looking for info on restricted Paypal accounts. I found a lot of web sites, the legendary paypalsucks.com being just one of many. There's lots of personal sites where people describe their experiences with Paypal. This actually gave me some consolation, because I saw people had been done much worse than me. Some companies had to go out of business and lots of sellers lost their credibility completely.

You may call them conspiracy theorists, but these are real people who simply describe what happened to their money. Sure, people can lie, but in this case I choose to believe them.

Then I get a serious warning from my sponsors. They are no kids. No conspiracy theorists either. When they say they have been warned by numerous people that Paypal started freezing peoples' funds, I don't think they're lying.

Freezing peoples' funds is nothing uncommon and it doesn't sound like a conspiracy theory to me.

I faxed them what they wanted and expect my account to be returned to its previous state soon, even though I read that some people had to fax their documents many times over.

But maybe they're lying.

Or there is a conspiracy against Paypal.

 

[NameBox]

Call them 1-888-221-1161

They have millions of members, I'd say a large majority of whom find them indispensible. As I mentioned, I don't know anyone using them in large volume, who has cause for complaint.

Personally, I have more confidence if PP than any service save Bidpay.com, as my primary consideration is anti-fraud security. People often take these services for granted. For many users, it is the only way to open a legitimate CC processing account for internet "card not available" transactions. Many banks either forbid these transactions under the TOS or require an amount placed in escrow due to a large number of fraudulent transactions and/or chargebacks.

I just don't think a publicly listed company, high profile, owned partially by Deutsche Bank, is in the business of "freezing" accounts for no reason. Anyway, uncle, sorry to hear that you are having problems. Best of luck ....

 

[uncle]

I just don't think a publicly listed company, high profile, owned partially by Deutsche Bank, is in the business of "freezing" accounts for no reason

NameBox, don't take it personally, but this is a very naive statement IMO. Publicly listed, high profile companies often engage in shady practices. No room to name examples here. The thread would get too long.

Enron

Anyway, uncle, sorry to hear that you are having problems. Best of luck ....

Thanks. It's not that bad. The money is not big at all. I would only miss the convenience of making and receiving payments should they decide that I'm not credible, that's all.

 

[brandon309]

I have never had any problem with PayPal myself, but I have heard of people that have had all of their funds depleted out of their PayPal balance. Most people don't know that PayPal cannot be sued, they are bound by any legalities, so if they want to take your money, there is nothing that you can do about it. PayPal can also take money out of your bank account if persay, someone complains that they never received payment for a goods transfer. I myself have had a PayPal complaint from an unsatisfied customer, the work had already been dont and he was using part of what I did, he still demanded a full refund though. I offered a partial refund, but that wasn't good enough for him. He filled out a complaint against my account, but PayPal did nothing because there was no proof of service. So watch your back out there people, its a cruel world where truth is uncommon and injustice is often served. I'm out like a theif in the night ~>