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How many registrars have this policy??!!

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I just found the following in GKG's Registration Agreement:

"In the event of a charge back by a credit card company (or similar action by another payment provider allowed by us) in connection with the payments of the registration fee for your domain name registration, you agree and acknowledge that the domain name registration shall be transferred to GKG as the paying entity for that registration to the registry and that we reserve all rights regarding such domain name including, without limitation, the right to make the domain name available to other parties for purchase. We will reinstate your domain name registration solely at our discretion, and subject to our receipt of the initial registration or renewal fee and our then-current reinstatement fee, currently set at US$200."

That's enough to make me look elsewhere for a registrar.
 
Domain summit 2024

Guest
Sounds like what register.com were doing with their afternic "specials" (and verisign/gd too). Its pretty sucky, but if someone reges but doesn't actually pay for a domain they need to recoup their costs somehow.
 

Guest
Safesys, "proportionality" is the key word here.

I think taking ownership of a domain name that may be worth $$$$$$ to recover $10 is a wee bit excessive and should be . . . "discouraged". Such a policy turns a minor financial mishap into a major PIA or worse.

I think folks should read WITH EXTREME CARE all policies of a registrar before using them.
 

Guest
Here's how another registrar handles it :

"If you chargeback a credit card charge for a payment initiated by you, you agree that we may recover the amount of the chargeback, as well as the chargeback fee by any means we deem necessary, including but not limited to re-charging your credit card for the chargeback. Furthermore, if you initiate a chargeback of a previous credit card charge, access to your account may be denied until payment is made and your account may be terminated, both at the sole discretion of us."

In other words, the way virtually every other vendor of any service handles it. If they want to "take" ownership of your domain name, they'd have to do it by taking further legal action, NOT in virture of your prior approval via your "adherence" to a registration agreement authored by them. No court in the US would allow a judgment to be awarded that would be so disproportionate to the actual damages incurred by the vendor.
 

Guest
I think we read that different then because I take it that "by any means we deem necessary" would certainly cover offering the domain for sale would that they deemed that an appropriate avenue to take.

As you have no contract with the registrar if you don't pay and as you have no enforcable rights - what makes you think they'd need to take you to court?
 

Guest
Of course you have a contract. Many contracts -- e.g. the one's we are talking about -- state the actions to be taken in case of a "breach." In fact, much of a typical contract is a discussion of who-gets-what if a certain kind of breach occurs.

The difference, and it is MAJOR, between the two registrars regarding "charge back" is that in one, you have, by virtue of adhering to its contract, ALREADY agreed that it gets your domain name (or, at best, $200 at its discretion). In the other, YOU DO NO SUCH THING -- any such "damages" they would be awarded would have to be awarded by the Court. In the first, you've ALREADY agreed to their taking your domain name as appropriate and, AT MOST, all they'd have to do is to get the Court to ENFORCE that contract term.
 

Guest
So if you go into a shop and pick up an item walk to the checkout and find you have no money - do you get to walk home with the item and then the shop has to sue you to get it back?

Without making payment you have no "glue" or consideration for the contract.
 

Guest
Safesys - that's not a good analogy for MANY reasons. Here are TWO:

1. you have no explicit contract with the vendor you describe -- if you did, and if the situation you describe was covered and the contract was legally enforceable, then the remedy would be "as contracted."

2. the vendor you describe is selling a PRODUCT which he owns and not a SERVICE. The R-E-G-I-S-T-R-A-R has NEVER owned the rights to YOUR DOMAIN NAME, and, consequently, never sold them to you -- it is providing registration services for your intellectual property -- hence, the name "registrar". So, unless you have already, by virtue of the contract, agreed to give up those rights -- and why WOULD you? -- in case of breach, it would have to get a court to agree that taking your rights is an appropriate award for the actual damages it incurred as a result of a $10 "charge back". LOTS OF LUCK!! ;-) AFAIK, there is nothing like a "mechanic's lien", let alone a "forfeiture", for intellectual property like this.
 

Guest
If the shop ordered the item in specifically for you as a special order....don't forget the registrar has paid for the service just as the shop has paid for the item.

But, putting that aside - wheres the glue? For a contract to be legally binding there has to be consideration from both parties.

Other than payment, what consideration does the registrant have?
 

Guest
Safesys -- take the matter up with your "solicitor".

I leave it to each reader to decide whether there is sufficient "glue" (must be a British legal expression) to get "stuck." ;-)
 

Guest
Well, given both Verisign and Register have done exactly this (resold neverpaids) - maybe you could read their registration agreements for the section that says they reserve the right to sell the domain. Given they have pretty strong legal reps, don't you think that under advice they saw fit to be able to do it?

Or would you prefer to labor semantics?
 

FineE

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I have dealt with GKG since late 2000 both as a customer and reseller and have had nothing but excellent service. When combined with thier pricing structure this combination is hard to beat. I sell .com, .net and .org registrations through GKG for $8.75 US at www.FineE.com/register.htm

How many registrars have been in business since 1993 for example? I can continue. But really if the only fault you can find with them is thier treatment fradulent transactions, that says a lot for the company.

As far as I can see a credit card chargeback when the domain was registered occuring if

1) When the domain was registered with a stolen credit card

2) The domain was registered with a valid credit card, by the credit card owner but the credit card owner claims s/he did not register the name in an attempt to avoid the charge.

Both 1) and 2) look to me like fraud pure and simple.

If you want to consider a case of a fraudulently obtained domain registration one can take a look at sex.com. It took years of litigation to take this domain away from the fraudster.

So I will conclude by saying that while I will gladly sell a domain registration with GKG for $8.75 at www.FineE.com/register.htm This is only for legitimate domain registrants.
 

RacerX

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is absolutely correct: If there was no consideration (MONEY TRANSFERED) there was by definition, no contract. END OF DISCUSSION.
 

FineE

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I do not agree with the "no contract" argument here.

Consider this scenario

1) A trademark holder registers a domain that corresponds exactly to the trademark with a stolen credit card. The word or phrase in question is totaly non generic and has no possible use other than the trademark.

2) The registrar "forecloses" on the domain because of the fradulent non payment. By "foreclosing" on the domain the registrar must agree to the ICANN UDRP

3) The trademark holder then launches a process under the ICANN UDRP in an attempt to recover the domain.

The key point here is that the fradulent registration may have given the registrar a legitimate interest in the domain that did not exist before and possible defence under the ICANN UDRP and / or in the courts

Yes a serious breach of a contract may let the party not in breach(the registrar) out of the contract. But it may not let the party in breach out of the contract or negate the contract. A very important difference when the existance of the contract is in the interest of the party who did not breach the contract.
 
M

MattyP

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I found this thread facinating to read.

Very spirited ' arguements ' from all sides with no quater given.

Thrust and parry, parry and thrust.

While at times the debate seemed ready to boil over at anytime, all kept their heads and behaved within the ' fair play ' limits.

Fantastic reading.

Matt
 

Guest
Doing a chargeback is a pretty serious thing and likely involves costs to the registrar as well as loss in revenue. Taking control of the domain and charging a $200 fee to someone who later decides they want a domain back seems reasonable to me.
 

Guest
FineE, at what point do you consider the contract to have been formed between registrant and registrar?

Just entering your details for a domain is tantamount to simply "requesting" it - like commissioning a custom piece of art. The act of requesting it does not pass title nor give rights to it.

If anybody has any legal rights in this scenario its the registrar who has acted in good faith by requesting the domain from the registry on the understanding the credit card payment would be met in full. Its hard to see what losses the registrant could claim as they have provided no consideration to bind the contract that would give them title or rights in the domain name.

Without rights or title, they have no say in what the registrar does with that domain name.
 

Guest
Service Agreement samples:

From Verisign:
3. FEES, PAYMENT AND TERM OF SERVICE. As consideration for the services you purchased, you agree to pay VeriSign the applicable service(s) fees set forth on our Web site at the time of your selection, or, if applicable, upon receipt of your invoice from VeriSign

From Register.com:
Fees; Renewals
As consideration for register.com's domain name registration, administration and renewal services, you agree to pay register.com, upon submission of your domain name application, renewal application, or registrar transfer application to register.com, the then-current fees set forth in the register.com price schedule for such services.

From eNom:
As consideration for the domain name registration services and/or other services provided by eNom to you, you agree to pay eNom, prior to the effectiveness of the desired domain name registration, the applicable service(s) fees for the initial registration of the domain name and, should you choose to renew the registration, subsequent renewals of the registration

From GoDaddy:
In consideration for the services and products ("service") purchased by you and provided to you by Go Daddy, you agree to pay Go Daddy at the time service is provided.


As you can see, payment is the consideration for their contracts - so without making payment, the registrant has not consideration for the agreement and thus no enforcable rights under the contract. The registrar can then do what they like with the domain name (they don't have to be explicit about what they will do with it as they are the sole party with rights to it).

Melbourne IT spell it out more clearly:

From Meblourne IT:
Non payment
Registrant agrees that failure to pay any Registration fee when due (as evidenced for example by, without limitation, Registrant's credit card company notifying Melbourne IT of Registrant disputing the payment of, or refusing to pay such Registration fee, or where the Registrant's credit card payment has been declined or reversed) will entitle Melbourne IT to immediately transfer the relevant domain name from the Registrant to Melbourne IT, at its sole discretion. Registrant acknowledges that Melbourne IT will own all rights of the registered domain name holder in respect of any domain name transferred to Melbourne IT under this clause 15, including the right to sell the domain name to a third party. Melbourne IT may in its sole discretion re-transfer the relevant domain name to the Registrant subject to the Registrant's payment of any outstanding Registration fee, and Registrant's payment of Melbourne IT's re-transfer fee of US$25 (exclusive of local taxes).
 

FineE

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In answer to safesys question technically a contract exists when the registrant has indicated agreement with the terms and conditions.

This usually happens by clicking or selecting a box before the credit card is entered. However from a practical point of view the contract exists once the credit card is approved and the domain is registerd.

My point is that if the registrant acted in a fradulent manner the registrar gets additional rights to the domain that the registrar did not have before the fradulent registration, which is why the existance of a contract is important. The fact that the registrant did not provide consideration does not diminish the registrar's rights under the contract

The registrant on the other hand may loose pre existing rights.

In other words the registrant would be better off without a contract.
 
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