ICANN Welcomes the World

[bobovia]

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

 

[Anthony Ng]

but since so many of them are trying to break into the market in the West they will still need to use English, won't they?

... IF the "market" is still in the West.

in fact, 100% of the world's Internet users have been using English to create the .com/.cn/.ru etc. suffix.

Yes, the Interent WAS 100% English WHEN there were like 99% less users (as in 15 millions vs 1,500 millions). As it grows, home languages NATURALLY take up.

More importantly, just because the Internet was "created" in English doesn't mean it HAS TO stay English forever. For those who are not aware of it, when Europe was still the centre of the earth, French was the "English" back then. Things CHANGE.

1 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech ...

People who THINK the world *could* or should live under one "whatever" (be it language, religion, idealogy) is naive to say the least. By the way, I LOVE the Tower of Babel story since I was like 8 or 9: it's one of those unresolved nodes (along with e.g. Noah's Ark) that eventually brought about my rejecting of Catholicism.

 

[bwhhisc]

bwhhisc, in what language do you plan to have your "product"? If I sell "superflex" how would that transcribe into Russian? I guess ΥπερΦλεξ.ελ would be superb to sell in Greece, according to your logic.

Here's a simple example. Lets say you make machines (or various parts) for Hydraulics...pumps, machines, cartridge valves, hydraulic manifolds, hydraulic jacks etc.

Why would you not want to own hydraulics.com in various foreign languages?

For less than $75 dollars a year, here is over 2 BILLION population you could reach with that one keyword in some major languages.

English: hydraulics.com
Japanese: 油圧.com
Chinese: 液压系统.com
Spanish- hidráulica.com
Russian: гидравлика.com
Bulgarian хидравлика.com
Arabic: الهيدروليكية.com
Greek: υδραυλική.com
Vietnamese: thủylực.com

I think this could be a good thing for type-in.
For example many Japanese people are not comfortable with ASCII so they will routinely use search engines to reach the site they're looking for, possibly bookmark it for later use.
Instead they could type in the full URL in their native character set.
Let's face it, IDNs are a hybrid thing today - 日本.com looks odd. At least 日本.コムis consistent. For sure I would have a hard time fumbling with a Japanese keyboard
Aliasing is complementing existing TLDs, these are no new TLDs.
I'm sure there are opportunities but IDN.IDN will probably not take off in all non-ASCII nations. China, Russia seem to be on track.
TBH I have always thought one of the main uses for IDNs should be capturing type-in traffic.

Spot on, you go girl!

 

[Rubber Duck]

Call me naive, but I thought that dotcom was the universally-accepted tld. Will these more specific tlds not limit people to their own areas more? Will I not know immediately I get spam using one of these, whereas before I might have been a little uncertain (until I read the awful English)?

Naive was not what sprung to mind.

 

[MAllie]

So please tell me what did spring to mind, Rubber Duck. Just for the sake of clarity.

 

[Rubber Duck]

I do understand about people from other countries needing their own tlds for their home market, but since so many of them are trying to break into the market in the West they will still need to use English, won't they?

Yes, but obviously they need different content for different markets. It is no good expecting all Chinese to read English, just as it would be silly to expect all Americans to understand Chinese. Just having the address in ASCII is not going to make the content universally accessible is it?

With a billion people in China alone having an estimated 120,000,000 + internet users you will get the whole spectrum of internet users.

To answer your question in a simple manner....for international businesses worldwide, it would be huge to have your keywords as both "product.com", "product.net" as well as "product".idn in a few dozen major languages.

But for the vast majority, IDNs will provide the simple ease and pleasure to be able to type in and surf in your own familiar native language. All in all pretty simple concept that has been about 10 years in the making.

338,000,000! Try to keep up Bill.

http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats3.htm#asia

So please tell me what did spring to mind, Rubber Duck. Just for the sake of clarity.

I just cannot believe this conversation is going on now. There have been ten long years to discuss the pros and cons of this, but it amazing how those that totally ignored the process now suddenly become vocal. Ah, well the bottom line is it is tough shit. Your voices have no influence now. Well, if that isn't Stupidity, then I don't know what is.

 

[MAllie]

Yes, but obviously they need different content for different markets. It is no good expecting all Chinese to read English, just as it would be silly to expect all Americans to understand Chinese. Just having the address in ASCII is not going to make the content universally accessible is it?

Well, if the Americans are hoping to conquer the Chinese markets, I think they should know Chinese. But I was reading a couple of weeks ago in one of the Sunday supplements (UK) that more Chinese people want to learn English than ever before, so it seems that they see the value in it for themselves anyway.

I just cannot believe this conversation is going on now. There have been ten long years to discuss the pros and cons of this, but it amazing how those that totally ignored the process now suddenly become vocal.

I certainly haven't been around here for ten years, so these discussions are new to me, and I was hoping to learn, which is why I make the effort to post, no matter how insignificantly. Sorry for not being wiser about the whole issue.

 

[Wot]

Well, if the Americans are hoping to conquer the Chinese markets, I think they should know Chinese. But I was reading a couple of weeks ago in one of the Sunday supplements (UK) that more Chinese people want to learn English than ever before, so it seems that they see the value in it for themselves anyway.



I certainly haven't been around here for ten years, so these discussions are new to me, and I was hoping to learn, which is why I make the effort to post, no matter how insignificantly. Sorry for not being wiser about the whole issue.

RD tends to get a bit heated about IDN but he got myself and a lot of other people interested in them a few years back and I have continued to build a portfolio pending recent announcements that make it all worthwhile.

Yes the many Chinese would like to learn another language (学英语.cn - learn English ) and mainly for business purposes. Your analogy would be correct, Americans or whomever wants to to business in China would do well to learn Mandarin.

I would think that English speaking Chinese way dominate the English westerners speaking Chinese so advantage China. But- they also understand that to dominate their internal market the they need to provide internet access to the millions who do not read or write Chinese, hence idn.idn.

This does not just apply to China of course, Russia, Japan,Korea etc.

If you seriously want to understand more about IDN then seek out the forums that specialise. Many of the mainstream ascii dominated forums have yet to completely get the concept.

 

[Rubber Duck]

Well, if the Americans are hoping to conquer the Chinese markets, I think they should know Chinese. But I was reading a couple of weeks ago in one of the Sunday supplements (UK) that more Chinese people want to learn English than ever before, so it seems that they see the value in it for themselves anyway.

I certainly haven't been around here for ten years, so these discussions are new to me, and I was hoping to learn, which is why I make the effort to post, no matter how insignificantly. Sorry for not being wiser about the whole issue.

You should not believe all you read, most journalists don't even get out of the office these days. You moan about their their awful English but you expect them to use as a primary source of information. Why would that work?

My wife is Czech. She has been living and working in the UK for 5 years. She recent got 50/50 on her driving theory test, so she cannot be too bad at English. Actually, she is probably better than most here and reads an English book from cover to cover just about every week. When she goes on line, is it Google.com she uses? You have to be kidding she always goes to either Seznam.cz or Centrum.cz.

The value of domains to an investor should really come down to whether they have keywords that relate to Internet content, whether they get traffic, and whether or not those keywords generate paying advertisements. With IDN the first criteria is clearly met. Even with Hindi which everyone says will never be used, I would probably drop anything that my term in speech marks does not generate at least a Million pages in Google. Some terms in Chinese generate over a Billion. The traffic is a problem but it is there in some languages notably Russian. The paying adverts are also a problem. Russian does not pay particularly well at the moment, but Japanese pays better than English, it is just there is not much traffic at present. Chinese is currently a disaster area because the Chinese have effectively split the Root for IDN domains but not ASCII. Once they have their own IDN in the ICANN root that problem will be removed.

It is all down to opportunity. I concluded that most of the opportunity in English dot com had been played out 5 years ago. IDN looked a much better prospect, but to be fair some of what I regarded as rubbish back then has probably outperfomed what I invested in. However, that certainly won't be the case over the next couple of years. People are simply going to have to decide whether their white supremacist principles outweigh your natural desire to make money? I am sure that in your case once you have considered things rationally the decision will not be hard to make. As for Acrow, there ain't no saving him, but he like many ASCII owners is probably worried that IDN will each their lunch.

 

[jmcc]

The real reason that ICANN is doing this, in my opinion, is because long term trends would indicate that ccTLDs will dominate gTLDs in country level markets. That means that the gTLDs will decline as ccTLDs gain registrations. These trends mean that the ccTLDs will overtake .com in these country level markets too. Thus much of the growth in .com and the gTLDs is driven by people who are protecting their brands and by registrants in countries where the ccTLD is not yet dominant.

Regards...jmcc

 

[Rubber Duck]

The real reason that ICANN is doing this, in my opinion, is because long term trends would indicate that ccTLDs will dominate gTLDs in country level markets. That means that the gTLDs will decline as ccTLDs gain registrations. These trends mean that the ccTLDs will overtake .com in these country level markets too. Thus much of the growth in .com and the gTLDs is driven by people who are protecting their brands and by registrants in countries where the ccTLD is not yet dominant.

Regards...jmcc

As you stated it is an opinion and as such not only not corroborated by the facts but often actually in stark contrast to them.

 

[jmcc]

As you stated it is an opinion and as such not only not corroborated by the facts but often actually in stark contrast to them.

It is an opinion based on years of watching how ccTLDs and gTLDs develop at a country level. There is a point where the number of domains registered in a ccTLD exceeds the number of gTLD domains registered by registrants in that country. What happens then is that the third and fourth choice gTLDs (.net, .org, .biz and .info) decline so that it becomes a battle between .com and the ccTLD. Unless the ccTLD registry is staffed by complete muppets, the ccTLD wins on numerical terms as businesses begin to self-identify with the ccTLD. This is what has happened in .UK, .DE and the transition point in .IE is very close. Many of the EU countries may also be ccTLD positive. This is the point where a country becomes ccTLD positive. The situation for the US and Canada is somewhat different as the .com seems to be the default choice and is considered to be the "ccTLD".

Globally the gTLDs may appear to be successful but this is only because they are often considered in global terms and then compared with some ccTLD figures. Comparing them on a like for like basis (the number of gTLDs registered in a country compared with the number of registrations in the ccTLD) shows that countries become more ccTLD positive as their markets mature.

ICANN needs to justify its existence and IDNs and spurious new gTLDs are how it is doing it. However IDNs are problematic in that they are often better for ccTLDs. There's also an interesting theory that the .eu "ccTLD" has replaced the .com as the default non-ccTLD extension in the Eastern EU states.

Regards...jmcc

 

[Rubber Duck]

Sorry, but I find you analysis naive and superficial. Yes, ccTLD is strong in the UK, but what has happened is that smaller enterprises which want generic TLDs have tended to go that way because the dot Com was registered years ago by Americans. That situation is less evident where the language is question is not English. Big Corporation in the UK, however, still tend to use dot com because it is seen as giving more international presence and hence credibility.

The Germans have alway preferred dot DE. If anything dot Com is gaining ground their because of a shortage of names in the dot DE extension. Similarly most Eastern European countries have alway tended to focus on their own extension. When I am in Czech Republic I rarely come across dot com. Same in Russia. But these are not new developments. It has always been so. If anything the tide is turning the other way, and because Russia is now effectively flipping it ccTLD because of clashes with Paraguay's ccTLD and problems relating to phishing, what you have is a situation where Russia is going to be banging out a whole load of IDN propaganda for about 6 Months whilst being powerless to issue a single IDN. This is a huge opportunity for Verisign to push IDN.com.

The situation in Asia is, however quite different dot com dominates Arab, Indian, Chinese markets. Of course in Markets of this size there is always going to be room for both, and much will depend on intended usage. However, your analysis is almost completely missing beyond .co.uk and .DE so not exactly very enlightening, especially as Latin languages are specifically excluded from the fast track process (es).

It is an opinion based on years of watching how ccTLDs and gTLDs develop at a country level. There is a point where the number of domains registered in a ccTLD exceeds the number of gTLD domains registered by registrants in that country. What happens then is that the third and fourth choice gTLDs (.net, .org, .biz and .info) decline so that it becomes a battle between .com and the ccTLD. Unless the ccTLD registry is staffed by complete muppets, the ccTLD wins on numerical terms as businesses begin to self-identify with the ccTLD. This is what has happened in .UK, .DE and the transition point in .IE is very close. Many of the EU countries may also be ccTLD positive. This is the point where a country becomes ccTLD positive. The situation for the US and Canada is somewhat different as the .com seems to be the default choice and is considered to be the "ccTLD".

Globally the gTLDs may appear to be successful but this is only because they are often considered in global terms and then compared with some ccTLD figures. Comparing them on a like for like basis (the number of gTLDs registered in a country compared with the number of registrations in the ccTLD) shows that countries become more ccTLD positive as their markets mature.

ICANN needs to justify its existence and IDNs and spurious new gTLDs are how it is doing it. However IDNs are problematic in that they are often better for ccTLDs. There's also an interesting theory that the .eu "ccTLD" has replaced the .com as the default non-ccTLD extension in the Eastern EU states.

Regards...jmcc

 

[MAllie]

You should not believe all you read, most journalists don't even get out of the office these days. You moan about their their awful English but you expect them to use as a primary source of information. Why would that work?

I certainly don't believe all I read, RD, and that admonition presumably goes for anything read on this forum also, lol.

Neither do I moan about journalists' awful English, at least in the newspapers, where standards still seem to me to be pretty good. It's Internet English that tends to be a bit dodgy, and I'm not talking about non-native speakers either. But I can usually work my way around it.

I'm interested in what John says about .ie catching up on dotcom now. There are a lot more .ie websites around nowadays, but somehow when I want to look up something non-specific (that is, non-Irish) I always expect to find it on a dotcom. I suppose that's pretty narrow-minded of me and I will make more of an effort to find a suitable .ie in future.

 

[Rubber Duck]

I certainly don't believe all I read, RD, and that admonition presumably goes for anything read on this forum also, lol.

Neither do I moan about journalists' awful English, at least in the newspapers, where standards still seem to me to be pretty good. It's Internet English that tends to be a bit dodgy, and I'm not talking about non-native speakers either. But I can usually work my way around it.

I'm interested in what John says about .ie catching up on dotcom now. There are a lot more .ie websites around nowadays, but somehow when I want to look up something non-specific (that is, non-Irish) I always expect to find it on a dotcom. I suppose that's pretty narrow-minded of me and I will make more of an effort to find a suitable .ie in future.

Perhaps, but then I am narrow minded enough to hold most of IDN portfolios in the dot Com extension. Dot Com is a global brand. Yes, it does have local competition from ccTLD but their market do not completely overlap anyway. There will always be a place for both, but I disagree that ccTLD are pushing dot Com out. The evidence is just not there to substantiate that. Mere numbers of registration also prove very little. It what people visit and why they visit that matters. Remember ccTLD will usually fulfil the role of dot Gov outside the US.

 

[MAllie]

Perhaps, but then I am narrow minded enough to hold most of IDN portfolios in the dot Com extension. Dot Com is a global brand. Yes, it does have local competition from ccTLD but their market do not completely overlap anyway. There will always be a place for both, but I disagree that ccTLD are pushing dot Com out. The evidence is just not there to substantiate that. Mere numbers of registration also prove very little. It what people visit and why they visit that matters. Remember ccTLD will usually fulfil the role of dot Gov outside the US.

I'm sure it's my fault entirely, RD, but I thought that you were on the other side of the debate. Now I'm more confused that ever. I shall have to go back over the whole thread and try to make better sense of it.

 

[jmcc]

Sorry, but I find you analysis naive and superficial.

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Yes, ccTLD is strong in the UK, but what has happened is that smaller enterprises which want generic TLDs have tended to go that way because the dot Com was registered years ago by Americans.

And this created a greater focus on .UK as the extension of choice within the UK. These small businesses started to use .UK as their primary brand and as a result, much of the development occurred in that TLD. As a result, .UK became the default extension for UK businesses and registrants. This is a simple reality of how ccTLD markets develop.

That situation is less evident where the language is question is not English. Big Corporation in the UK, however, still tend to use dot com because it is seen as giving more international presence and hence credibility.

But they also seem to be working on a global basis. The bulk of a country's market is the small businesses who use the ccTLD rather than the .com or gTLD because this self-identifies with their target market which, very often, is local rather than global. Non-English language markets would probably have a higher number of unique domains in that would not be found in .com or other TLDs.

The Germans have alway preferred dot DE. If anything dot Com is gaining ground their because of a shortage of names in the dot DE extension.

And is this based on your opinion or any facts?

Similarly most Eastern European countries have alway tended to focus on their own extension. When I am in Czech Republic I rarely come across dot com. Same in Russia. But these are not new developments. It has always been so. If anything the tide is turning the other way, and because Russia is now effectively flipping it ccTLD because of clashes with Paraguay's ccTLD and problems relating to phishing, what you have is a situation where Russia is going to be banging out a whole load of IDN propaganda for about 6 Months whilst being powerless to issue a single IDN. This is a huge opportunity for Verisign to push IDN.com.

But will Verisign push IDN.com?

The situation in Asia is, however quite different dot com dominates Arab, Indian, Chinese markets. Of course in Markets of this size there is always going to be room for both, and much will depend on intended usage.

And that usage is what decides the success or otherwise of a TLD. I don't think that the "room for both" argument is valid in the long term because of the nature of country level markets. One TLD becomes dominant in that market and the others then decline over the long term. Transnational markets of those size are always more complex than easily grouped ccTLD level markets.

Regards...jmcc

 

[Rubber Duck]

I'm sure it's my fault entirely, RD, but I thought that you were on the other side of the debate. Now I'm more confused that ever. I shall have to go back over the whole thread and try to make better sense of it.

To make sense of any Domain debate, first you have to establish who the dumb arsed contributors are. Often tricky for a newcomer, but if you put Acrow at the top of your list then you will be headed in the right direction.

 

[jmcc]

I'm interested in what John says about .ie catching up on dotcom now. There are a lot more .ie websites around nowadays, but somehow when I want to look up something non-specific (that is, non-Irish) I always expect to find it on a dotcom. I suppose that's pretty narrow-minded of me and I will make more of an effort to find a suitable .ie in future.

Well these are the breakdowns for the TLDs on Irish hosters as of 01/November/2009:

.ie: 104451 (133507 .ie registered)
.com: 108992
.net: 12492
.org: 6983
.biz: 2250
.info: 2822
.mobi: 752
.asia: 53
.eu: 7662 (identified)
.co.uk: 10635 (identified)

In terms of usage, .ie tends to be used because it is more expensive and business orientated. The interesting aspect is that just over 3% of .ie websites were PPC parked and most of those are transitional parking by hosters rather than being monetised.

Regards...jmcc

 

[Rubber Duck]

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

And this created a greater focus on .UK as the extension of choice within the UK. These small businesses started to use .UK as their primary brand and as a result, much of the development occurred in that TLD. As a result, .UK became the default extension for UK businesses and registrants. This is a simple reality of how ccTLD markets develop.

But they also seem to be working on a global basis. The bulk of a country's market is the small businesses who use the ccTLD rather than the .com or gTLD because this self-identifies with their target market which, very often, is local rather than global. Non-English language markets would probably have a higher number of unique domains in that would not be found in .com or other TLDs.

And is this based on your opinion or any facts?

But will Verisign push IDN.com?

And that usage is what decides the success or otherwise of a TLD. I don't think that the "room for both" argument is valid in the long term because of the nature of country level markets. One TLD becomes dominant in that market and the others then decline over the long term. Transnational markets of those size are always more complex than easily grouped ccTLD level markets.

Regards...jmcc

Frankly, you are missing the point to some degree here. The total numbers of registrations is not the only metric that matters. The key is the level of traction that these domains have with the users. Every two man operation in the UK has a .co.uk, many of them will never get any traffic to their websites and won't even know how to exploit their domain for an email address.

Well these are the breakdowns for the TLDs on Irish hosters as of 01/November/2009:

.ie: 104451 (133507 .ie registered)
.com: 108992
.net: 12492
.org: 6983
.biz: 2250
.info: 2822
.mobi: 752
.asia: 53
.eu: 7662 (identified)
.co.uk: 10635 (identified)

In terms of usage, .ie tends to be used because it is more expensive and business orientated. The interesting aspect is that just over 3% of .ie websites were PPC parked and most of those are transitional parking by hosters rather than being monetised.

Regards...jmcc

How has this debate on the future of the Internet somehow got side tracked on to the economy of a Potato Republic that nearly went under last year?