Owners Clubs

[PeteM]

If I wished to start an unofficial owners club, eg for Porsche is it legally OK to use "Porsche" in the domain name, eg www.porscheclub.com?

The club I would like to run would initially be none proft making but I would hope to make a small profit from advertising in the future.

Does it matter if Porsche already made reference to "Porsche Club" in their official site but had failed to register the domain name.

Please note that "Porsche" was just an example.

I realise that I will need a disclaimer to say that my club has no connection with the manufacturer.

Does anyone have any othere helpful comments?

I've tried searching the web for an answer but there are conflicting stories out there.

Many thanks, Pete

 

[dtobias]

Perhaps a .org domain would be better for an unofficial club that's not primarily intending to be a commercial enterprise?

 

[PeteM]

Isn't .org a little second rate? I always reckon that peple only register .org when .com has been taken.

 

[PeteM]

Supplementary question. If someone has a trademark of Xxxxx Club (completely unrelated to my club) I assume that I'd be on dodgy ground registering XxxxxClub.co.uk. Would I get away with ClubXxxxx.co.uk?

Many thanks, Pete

 

[dtobias]

People of low intelligence or education tend to think that .com should always be the "first choice" in domains, even for a noncommercial site. People with more of a clue, however, know the meaning of the different TLDs and pick the one that best represents the purpose of the site in question.

 

[Silverwire]

Originally posted by dtobias
People of low intelligence or education tend to think that .com should always be the "first choice" in domains, even for a noncommercial site. People with more of a clue, however, know the meaning of the different TLDs and pick the one that best represents the purpose of the site in question.

I must be pretty dumb then.

I understand the original intention of the various gTLD's. I think in most cases (established organizations) the best approach is for non-profits to use the .org and redirect the .com to it. But the reality is that .com is still the most recognized and prestigious TLD brand in the minds of most people and will help you get traffic if you are hoping to be selected out of many search engine results for a given topic. People seeking information about a topic don't always care the source of the information (.com, .org) as long as it's quality information.

Taking a high brow approach is not the most practical solution to gaining traffic. Perhaps .com, .net and .org should have harder rules that registrants were required to adhere to from the outset, but you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Dan, I've read through much of your site and find it full of good information and enjoy it. But I just don't get this crusade you're on for the "proper" use of gTLD's.

 

[PeteM]

would it make any difference to the legality of the domain name if I used xxxxx.org or xxxxx.com?

 

[DomainPairs]

I agree with you dan, only thing is though the purpose of a web site is to get people to visit it and people are most likely to start with .com sites if they don't know the url. Also, of the forget the TLD, they go to .com.

 

[PeteM]

Please could we get back to the original question unless the .ORG or .COM has an effect on the legality of an owners club url name.

Ta, Pete

 

[bidawinner]

Originally posted by PeteM
Please could we get back to the original question unless the .ORG or .COM has an effect on the legality of an owners club url name.

Ta, Pete

YES, IMO..

if you take the .com ,bad faith could be "implied" (because of .com = commercial enterprise) by taking the .org you are implying a NON commercial venture.. your chances of keeping the name MAY improve..

BUT..you just blew it by acknowlgging in a public forum your long term goal is advertising revenues for the sake of PROFIT..

You just acknowldged that your intent is in the long run to PROFIT from a TM name.


That is MO of how a decision could very well come down..

 

[PeteM]

Thanks bidawinner at last someone with an opinion on my original question!

The definition of 'Bad faith' is........

(i) circumstances indicating that you have registered or you have acquired the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark or to a competitor of that complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of your documented out-of-pocket costs directly related to the domain name; or

(ii) you have registered the domain name in order to prevent the owner of the trademark or service mark from reflecting the mark in a corresponding domain name, provided that you have engaged in a pattern of such conduct; or

(iii) you have registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of disrupting the business of a competitor; or

(iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant's mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.

My defence.......

(i) Not true in my case as I have no intention to sell the domain name.
(ii) The manufacturer does currently have an owners club called the 'Xxxxxxx Club'. I intent to call my club the 'Xxxxxxx Owners Club' therefore I am not preventing the trademark owner from registering the name of his club.
(iii) I have no intention to disrupting the primary business of the trademark holder or his owners club.
(iv) My club web site will clearly state that is is unofficial with no affiliation.

Therefore I still do not see why it is bad faith to make a profit from an owners club (remember I am talking about a little advertising, NOT selling pirate goods which would be a copyright infringement in itself).

 

[lliang]

If my memory did not fool me, Porsche took a lot of website owners to court a few years back. Basically, if the name of your site has "Porsche" in it (i.e. www.ihavenoporsche.com) and regardless what you use the site for (Porn to enthusiasts sites), you would received a letter from Porsche's lawyers. I am not sure the outcome of the lawsuit (I think Porsche won.). All I know is a very informative site about Porsche vehicles (Porsches.Com, I am pretty sure it was a non-profit site) did not survive the whole thing.

 

[dtobias]

I wonder if such a noncommercial Porsche enthusiast site would have had a better chance of surviving the challenge if it had the more logical .org address instead of the illogical .com?

 

[PeteM]

I do like Silverwire's previous suggestion ".....the best approach is for non-profits to use the .org and redirect the .com to it." That way if you have to drop the .com you're still left with the .org.

BTW in the course of my research I came across http://www.bmwownersclub.com. Give it a click!

 

[Silverwire]

There are a lot of examples out there of what your are suggesting, but it may depend on specifics that I do not understand. I'm not a lawyer, but Mr. Berryhill referred me on a similar question to WIPO case for mercedesshop.com (sorry, I don't have case number or link) that supports that sort of use, but there was a dissenting opinion.

 

[PeteM]

Many thanks Silverwire. Here's the link.......
http://arbiter.wipo.int/domains/decisions/html/2001/d2001-0160.html
It appears that there are a number of ways to protect yourself:-
a) XxxxxxxOwnersClub is good but even XxxxxxxShop will do.
b) Run as a fan/club site from the start.
c) Acknowledge trademarks and make the non affiliation clear.

Regards, Pete

 

[Duke]

Very good information Silverwire. Everyone involved with sites that have a TM name in incorporated in it should read and understand this (and consult their own lawyer about it). To me it is still not worth the hassle to be involved with names like this, but to those who want to go that route it is excellent information.