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cctld end of new prov. extensions

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fwdtech

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Provincial naming has been an end-user disaster right from the onset

Still waiting for a response as to how prov. extensions is a "disaster."
 
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whitebark

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Still waiting for a response as to how prov. extensions is a "disaster."

Agreed. I don't see any real upside that supplants the other needs for it to remain as is.
 

msn

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I know everyone who pays their $20. is entitled to post their thoughts.
But, a lot of members here have been doing this for 10 years, and thoroughly understand the history of the .ca TLD and its wonderful uniqueness. Many of the more experienced members also do web development, instead of just flipping domains, which therefore provides a wider perspective.

This backdoor change is gutless, wrong, and has ZERO merit. (I'm still waiting for a SINGLE reason to be posted that makes sense.)

For the uninformed cynics that are here:
Consider these 2 nefarious organizations, their provincial counterparts, and their respective .ca reg's:

heartandstroke.ab.ca
heartandstroke.bc.ca
heartandstroke.ca
heartandstroke.mb.ca
heartandstroke.nb.ca
heartandstroke.nf.ca
heartandstroke.ns.ca
heartandstroke.on.ca
heartandstroke.pe.ca
heartandstroke.qc.ca
heartandstroke.sk.ca

girlguides.ca
girlguides.mb.ca
girlguides.nb.ca
girlguides.ns.ca
girlguides.pe.ca
girlguides.sk.ca

These organizations are using the .ca system exactly as it should be used - each prov. group can maintain their identity, their own domain, on their own server, as they can and feel. (Sub-domains cannot accomplish this).

This has worked tremendously since before CIRA.
For some capricious, and apparently top-secret, reason, CIRA is now saying that it's no good.

If the Girl Guides of Alberta wanted to create girlguides.ab.ca, they would not be able.
If the volunteer maintaining girlguides.sk.ca forgets to renew, tough (if you haven't received an email with this scenario - our volunteer forgot to renew - then you haven't been domaining enough).

This is the most absurd change possible, and goes against Industry Canada's mandate.

Amen, amen!
 

dot-ca

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Still waiting for a response as to how prov. extensions is a "disaster."

We were hired to survey a significant end-user base regarding the possible limitations of double dots in web addresses. 38% were either annoyed by, or worse, overlooked the second dot when it appeared after the root domain whereas only 4% struggled with it when it appeared before the root domain. We equated the latter to the awareness of the www-dot format being entrenched in Internet usage thinking.


38% potential traffic loss spells “disaster”.


Technically speaking it's basic DNS to serve up a sub-domain on another hosting account (or server) and in the event someone like Girl Guides HQ forgot to renew girlguides.ca, most domainers would steer clear of the drop, and for the unknowing who chanced it, there would likely be too much industry/political pressure to give it back (anyway).
 

fwdtech

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We were hired to survey a significant end-user base regarding the possible limitations of double dots in web addresses. 38% were either annoyed by, or worse, overlooked the second dot when it appeared after the root domain whereas only 4% struggled with it when it appeared before the root domain. We equated the latter to the awareness of the www-dot format being entrenched in Internet usage thinking.


38% potential traffic loss spells “disaster”.

Was your survey directed at "print" or "TV" marketing? Because you were earlier referencing SEO, and now mention 38% traffic loss. With few exceptions, most of the traffic being generated by the DNF members is EXCLUSIVELY online, so old-school marketing is irrelevant.
IMO, the search engines prefer third-level-domains over sub-domains.

I'll give 2 more real-life examples:
Pathways Software, Calgary (pathways.ab.ca)
Pathways Skills Development, Ontario (pathways.on.ca),
who have peacefully, and SEO-wise, successfully co-existed for 10 years.
Based on your premise, this is a "disaster," and should not be allowed to have happened.

A number of domainers, including some very successful and experienced DNF members, have real estate related backgrounds.
The domain name industry is extremely like real estate.

About.com defines the "bundle of rights" of real estate as:
the right of possession,
the right of control,
the right of exclusion,
the right of enjoyment,
the right of disposition.

Domains have essentially afforded these same rights, which has included, for 10 years, the right to the other extensions.
To abrogate this "right" is just plain wrong.
If a third party feels that I should be developing, disposing, or doing something else with my property (domain), because of their opinion, it's just too bad. It's my property. Buzz off.

This question posed at the 2008 CIRA AGM ( http://www.cira.ca/2008-agm-minutes/ ) shows that some people (who, given their occupation, really should) just don't get it.
Question: (Paul Donovan, Living Productions)

I have been involved with domains back when John and his team were working on it and the days when you wanted to get a domain and you had to take a bc.ca situation. Thankfully, now of course, we don’t have to go that route but over the last few years, ever since we’ve moved away from that billity, I have been trying to get a domain that somebody in Ontario has the on.ca on, refuses to answer their email, has no actual website, and keeps renewing every year but yet, I want to try to get the dot-ca or even a bc.ca. Is there any situation in place to help us clear up this ancient system and – no bad intention to you John and your team – I understood where you came from those days, but these days, everybody is going dot-ca without the provincial registration and when you’re trying to get a domain name that is an active real domain name, and the registrant doesn’t respond, and you can’t do any negotiation, what can we do? Is there any process in place? And, sadly, when I email CIRA about this, I don’t get any resolution to my question either.

I have received several emails from people similar to this one.
If I own a parcel of land, I don't "NEED" to sell it, nor do I even need to talk to someone who wants to buy it.

When a conflicting domain can't be registered, CIRA should change their response:
Search for domain kkc.ca failed.

01114 The domain name provided conflicts with at least one other registered domain name (e.g. xyz.ca conflicts with xyz.on.ca). Registering this domain name requires permission from the Registrant(s) that already holds the domain name(s): kkc.bc.ca. Contact CIRA for more information.

Instead of inviting people to "Contact CIRA," they should post an explanation page, and direct people there.

Eliminating new prov. reg's won't change anything.


The second example is this:
We "own" a domain that is a family name.
We had an inquiry from an executive at YPG who had that same family name, and wanted to buy it.
As this is one of our development names, we wouldn't transfer it (it would need to be a very high price). So, we suggested that we create hisfamilyname.on.ca for a far more modest fee, with which he was VERY happy.

This, my friend, was not a "disaster," but, everyone in this transaction was very satisfied.
Removing this option is what would be the "disaster."
 

whitebark

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We were hired to survey a significant end-user base regarding the possible limitations of double dots in web addresses. 38% were either annoyed by, or worse, overlooked the second dot when it appeared after the root domain whereas only 4% struggled with it when it appeared before the root domain. We equated the latter to the awareness of the www-dot format being entrenched in Internet usage thinking.


38% potential traffic loss spells “disaster”.

This also "supposes" that people are all doing direct navigation which we all know is just not how the world of internet traffic works. Most people who are going to return, memorize or bookmark, and most new visitors will come from search engines who don't rely on any keystrokes to get the visitor to your website.
 

msn

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It is pretty sad if CIRA is going to the 'lowest common denominator' for the sake of people like Paul Donovan. Perhaps - if the Ontario firm held its own domain prior to him - under the current rules he would have no web site at all.

In the beginning, you went to your provincial level coordinator and got your domain in whatever.province.ca done, and then you could do it online and still you were assigned one and only one domain for yourself or your organisation. There was an exception for the same registrant to hold a second domain if it was a translation of the first in the other official language.

Anyone could register acme.bc.ca and so nine other folks could register acme under their own tree in each province, with not a word to any of the others.

If you wanted a .ca on its own - which was actually fairly rare at the start - then you needed to demonstrate a national presence. To this day you will find registrations using the descriptor 'offices in more than one province' or 'offices in more than two provinces' which were used to justify occupying the top slot.

For CIRA to remove the historic structure of the .ca geographical-political tree system this is really a badly considered act with only short term gains for a few at the expense of all.
 

dot-ca

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Was your survey directed at "print" or "TV" marketing? Because you were earlier referencing SEO, and now mention 38% traffic loss. With few exceptions, most of the traffic being generated by the DNF members is EXCLUSIVELY online, so old-school marketing is irrelevant.
IMO, the search engines prefer third-level-domains over sub-domains.

Unless there is a referring link, especially when the domain isn't ranking well, a percentage of first-time visitors will screw it up. To me that's a pretty serious concern (disaster if it gets anywhere close to 38%). In the case of the survey, the URL was equally available in other mediums, which is not as uncommon as many think, at least I have to assume many of us either own sites or work with clients where ranking for the money words is near impossible out of the gate yet driving traffic via other mediums in the interim is both cost and results effective?

I'm all for pure web-based marketing but sometimes "old-school" marketing is the secret weapon and I don't say that lightly... we recently handled the knowledge transfer of a seven figure acquisition for a client who did nothing but old-school marketing. $1,500 four times a year. Granted we did the SEO part and parcel with development and eventually had the site ranked well for the money words, I'll admit, his quarterly efforts were just as effective.

Nevertheless, I'm simply stating that sub-domains are a viable option for keyword rich URLs, and capitalizing on provincial extensions is still among the minority of benefits.


In my own experience, all things considered equal, GEO rankings usually do better with exact keywords, i.e. toronto.lawyers.ca vs lawyers.on.ca for the query "Toronto Lawyers", hence torontolawyers.ca (not that toronto.lawyers.ca couldn't rank along side them with some elbow grease). Again, not my sites, just an example.


Funny you use about.com in your example, they are one of the largest beneficiaries of sub-domains on the web; just mouse over the topics on their home page, or google "womens health" among a plethora of other competitive generic terms.


Again, a step in the right direction and personally not saddened by the demise of provincial extensions... site owners, end users, and domainers will benefit from this over time IMO.
 
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Zoobar

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...

In my own experience, all things considered equal, GEO rankings usually do better with exact keywords, i.e. toronto.lawyers.ca vs lawyers.on.ca for the query "Toronto Lawyers", hence torontolawyers.ca (not that toronto.lawyers.ca couldn't rank along side them with some elbow grease). Again, not my sites, just an example.

Again, a step in the right direction and personally not saddened by the demise of provincial extensions... site owners, end users, and domainers will benefit from this over time IMO.

Why should a domain owner give up this right?

lawyer.toronto.on.ca
lawyer.vancouver.bc.ca
lawyer.calgary.ab.ca
etc.
 

fwdtech

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Some more nefarious organizations that are using the present .ca system the way it was intended:

legalaid.ab.ca
legalaid.bc.ca
legalaid.mb.ca
legalaid.nb.ca
legalaid.nl.ca
legalaid.on.ca
legalaid.sk.ca
legalaid.yk.ca

mediation.ab.ca
mediation.bc.ca
mediation.ns.ca
mediation.on.ca

wcb.ab.ca
wcb.bc.ca
wcb.mb.ca
wcb.ns.ca
wcb.nt.ca
wcb.pe.ca
wcb.yk.ca

kidsport.ab.ca
kidsport.bc.ca
kidsport.ca
kidsport.mb.ca
kidsport.nb.ca
kidsport.nl.ca
kidsport.ns.ca
kidsport.on.ca
kidsport.pe.ca
kidsport.sk.ca

elizabethfry.ab.ca
elizabethfry.bc.ca
elizabethfry.ca
elizabethfry.qc.ca

ibew.ab.ca
ibew.ca
ibew.nf.ca

schizophrenia.ab.ca
schizophrenia.ca
schizophrenia.on.ca
schizophrenia.sk.ca

appraisal.ab.ca
appraisal.bc.ca
appraisal.on.ca

bowls.ab.ca
bowls.ca
bowls.mb.ca
bowls.sk.ca

eggs.ab.ca
eggs.ca
eggs.mb.ca

cwl.ab.ca
cwl.bc.ca
cwl.ca
cwl.nb.ca
cwl.nl.ca
cwl.ns.ca
cwl.on.ca

elections.ab.ca
elections.bc.ca
elections.ca
elections.mb.ca
elections.nu.ca
elections.on.ca
elections.sk.ca

oipc.ab.ca
oipc.bc.ca
oipc.nl.ca
oipc.on.ca
oipc.pe.ca
oipc.sk.ca

And the best for last, CIRA's masters (note the reg dates of the prov. ext's)
canadabusiness.ab.ca
canadabusiness.bc.ca
canadabusiness.ca
canadabusiness.mb.ca
canadabusiness.qc.ca
canadabusiness.sk.ca

If anyone comes across some others, please post them.

I don't think Byron (they've clammed up) has told his boss what CIRA is up to.
August should be interesting.
 

msn

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Unless there is a referring link, especially when the domain isn't ranking well, a percentage of first-time visitors will screw it up. To me that's a pretty serious concern (disaster if it gets anywhere close to 38%). In the case of the survey, the URL was equally available in other mediums, which is not as uncommon as many think, at least I have to assume many of us either own sites or work with clients where ranking for the money words is near impossible out of the gate yet driving traffic via other mediums in the interim is both cost and results effective?

I'm all for pure web-based marketing but sometimes "old-school" marketing is the secret weapon and I don't say that lightly... we recently handled the knowledge transfer of a seven figure acquisition for a client who did nothing but old-school marketing. $1,500 four times a year. Granted we did the SEO part and parcel with development and eventually had the site ranked well for the money words, I'll admit, his quarterly efforts were just as effective.

Nevertheless, I'm simply stating that sub-domains are a viable option for keyword rich URLs, and capitalizing on provincial extensions is still among the minority of benefits.


In my own experience, all things considered equal, GEO rankings usually do better with exact keywords, i.e. toronto.lawyers.ca vs lawyers.on.ca for the query "Toronto Lawyers", hence torontolawyers.ca (not that toronto.lawyers.ca couldn't rank along side them with some elbow grease). Again, not my sites, just an example.


Funny you use about.com in your example, they are one of the largest beneficiaries of sub-domains on the web; just mouse over the topics on their home page, or google "womens health" among a plethora of other competitive generic terms.


Again, a step in the right direction and personally not saddened by the demise of provincial extensions... site owners, end users, and domainers will benefit from this over time IMO.

You do sound like someone who will sit down for a feast today but a famine tomorrow.

Nothing would stop the registrant of lawyers.ca from making all the sub-domains they want, just do not use that as an excuse to eliminate what we already have.

It seems as if CIRA wants to eliminate everything that involves a degree of human interaction.

As far as I am concerned, anyone - who is qualified - should be permitted to register a provincial or territorial extension without the current approval process.

Instead, current holders - say abc123.on.ca - would be informed "unless you otherwise register abc123.sk.ca within 30 days, or show a CIPO registration number which is an exact match for this domain, we will permit ABC123 Industries Saskatchewan Inc. to register the domain. Creation of other domains will in no way change access to or operation of your existing domain."
 

fwdtech

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So why do we need CIRA anymore then? If it will open .ca to anyone and eliminate the geo-structure, which was a founding principle of the Canadian segment of the internet, then why not outsource name delegation to NeuStar or Verisign? Shut it all down and save a fortune!

At first glance, I thought this was a bit over the top.
But this clandestine effort by CIRA leaves an awful taste in my mouth.

After reading comments about CIRA spending $1,000,000 ANNUALLY on travel,
and that "in fall 2007 CIRA’s Marketing staff grew from two to four, with hiring of a Marketing Manager and a Public Relations Communications Specialist."
and "This was coupled with a strong marketing campaign in both print and online outlets and focused media coverage to support the event. The Marketing Department was also closely involved in publicizing CIRA’s online elections, AGM, and WHOIS initiatives."
( Taken from Annual Report - http://www.cira.ca/assets/Documents/CIRAAR.pdf )
makes one wonder how, and why, CIRA is being transformed from a technical, non-profit entity, to that of an entity being run far differently.

Part of the transfer of the .ca registry to CIRA was to "operate on a cost-recovery basis." ( http://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/smt-gst.nsf/vwapj/dnsspt-e.pdf/$FILE/dnsspt-e.pdf Par. 1, Page 8 of doc - Page 11 of pdf )
With the number of registered .ca domains at over 1.4 million, the wholesale cost should probably be near $5.00.
Never going to happen with this gang.
 

msn

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One could argue that, with a basic technical crew and a strong governance model, the .ca registry could operate with just a handful of people, and that the cost could be $2 or $3 per registration, given the volume of registrations now in place.

Take a look at DENIC and compare!
 

fwdtech

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One could argue that, with a basic technical crew and a strong governance model, the .ca registry could operate with just a handful of people, and that the cost could be $2 or $3 per registration, given the volume of registrations now in place.

Take a look at DENIC and compare!

Do you know what is the wholesale cost for a .de ?
 

msn

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Do you know what is the wholesale cost for a .de ?

I really cannot tell you that, but I will point out that registrars offer .de domains in Germany for 29 cents per month.

That is only 3.48 Euro, or $4.69 CAD per year, although that also includes 19% tax, so to compare to Canada, and not taking into account purchasing power differences, they charge the equivalent of $3.94 CAD per year.

Again, that is retail pricing.
 

CanSpace

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This was communicated to registrars early this year.. and for some reason I thought it was communicated to all CIRA members as well... or I would have shared the information earlier.

I'll paraphrase what CIRA has communicated to registrars:

Current System:
- Allows a Registrar to request a provincial domain name on behalf of a Registrant.
- Supports the registration of 3rd and 4th level domain names
- Supports registration of conflicting domain names

New System:
- Rejects a Registrar request for a restricted name; a Registrant may still make a request directly to CIRA; CIRA will determine at its discretion whether to grant such a request and would assign a Registrar as the “sponsoring Registrar”
- Prevents a Registrar from requesting a provincial domain name; a Registrant may still make a request directly to CIRA; CIRA will determine at its discretion whether to grant such a request and would become the “sponsoring Registrar”
- Does not support the registration of new 3rd and 4th level domain names (except 4th level municipal). The system does continue to support the renewal of existing 3rd and 4th level domain names

So basically everything that has been said here so far... except that people can still ask CIRA for a provincial domain name... and CIRA will approve/reject at their discretion. I'm not certain what the criteria for that would be though.

For the average person this is no big deal.. however we have many clients in Quebec who prefer .qc.ca over .ca. So a bit of a loss for them...
 

msn

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The issue is 'discretion'; it is a black hole.

Instead, CIRA should set out a clear set of rules and stick to them.

When we start getting into 'discretion' we then have a decider, and likely later we get an appeal, which means they will decide that someone will need to be hired to listen to the appeal, or set up a process for that. Even then it might still be more equal for some than for others.

Sunlight - transparency - is the best disinfectant.
 

fwdtech

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This was communicated to registrars early this year.. and for some reason I thought it was communicated to all CIRA members as well...

CIRA finally responded to my email.
Their plan was to release this information sometime in August. no consultation, just a surprise change, and then "we've done so much planning to eliminate new prov. reg's that's it's not possible to continue to allow them."

So basically everything that has been said here so far... except that people can still ask CIRA for a provincial domain name... and CIRA will approve/reject at their discretion. I'm not certain what the criteria for that would be though.

I ran the girlguides.ab.ca scenario past CIRA, and that is correct - come changeover, no girlguides.ab.ca, and if girlguides.sk.ca volunteer webmaster forgets to renew, girlguides.sk.ca will be irrevocably gone.
 

hugegrowth

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I don't mind what happens either way, but our population is under 40 million, and I don't know what other country codes, with bigger populations, need to have the same kind of provincial/state add-on extensions. Does .us have this? Or .de or .co.uk?

Why not girlguidesmb.ca and girlguideson.ca instead? There are lots of ways around having to use a provincial extension.

Plus, existing ones seem to be grandfathered in, and if you can still apply to CIRA for one, they still have an avenue to continue. I'm sure new organizations that crop up similar to girl guides or charities, operating in different provinces, would get approved.
 

katherine

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Yes, .us has a similar, arcane 3rd and 4th level model ie. someentity.cheyenne.wy.us.
Actually even 6th level exists.
I don't think these are hugely popular, because you need to get hold of the manager to get things done.
 
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