closed FiveSquare (dot) com

[EffectiveNames.com]

I have received an email enquiry from a Dutch investment firm who are rebranding, the email did not contain any offer amount:

FiveSquare (dot) com

Obviously, apart from being a memorable brand with strong logo potential, it is conceptually close to the very famous FourSquare which, I believe, increases its cachet. I have no idea, though, if these guys would be aware of that - the firm consists five partners, all middle-aged and, apparently, very experienced, business degrees, law etc.

There are quite a few other companies around the world using the name Five Square or variations of it: an iPhone app, a British firm of architects, a Portland software company. FiveSquares.com is a diet meal delivery services. My sense is that the first one to own the .com will get to be the "real" FiveSquare.

I am not in any particular rush to sell, would always prefer to wait for the right buyer than to sell any domain for less than it is worth.

So, I would very much appreciate any opinions on the value of this domain.

 

[Biggie]

Hi

i would say, the name could have as much branding potential, in comparison to what 4square enjoys now

but would it have same appeal without that connection?



as is, the domain doesn't mean anything specific, but it's "associated potential" is wide and that's the leverage


min 5 figs

imo....

 

[Theo]

Not as valuable as SixSquare or SevenSquare, but if you had EightSquare or NineSquare you'd still be at a disadvantage to folks owning/using TenSquare, ElevenSquare and TwelveSquare, IMO.

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

@Biggie - thank you very much for your insights.


With regard to the meaning, beyond FourSquare, I note that many of the companies using the name were doing so prior to the existence of FourSquare. The original meaning of "foursquare" was "solid and strong" or "forthright and honest", so, I guess fivesquare was chosen as an extension of that, or, in the case of the diet meal company, it is meant as an extension of the old phrase "three square meals a day".

In the context of finance, I suppose the intended meaning is along the lines of multiplying your money, your investment cubed etc.

But, yes, it has no precise meaning or keyword value, the value would be that it would make a memorable and reasonably credible brand, I am very grateful to you for giving me a ballpark range that I should be aiming for.

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

@ Theo

Yes, I am gutted not to have the entire set, all the way up to OneHundredSquare.com.

I am, however, hopeful, that I will soon be able to build up a comprehensive portfolio of NumberCircle .COMs

In all seriousness, though, I would love to hear your opinion on the value, if you have one.

 

[Theo]

I think that by my exaggeration, you should be able to determine what I think of it. From a brand stand-point, it's too close to the famous FourSquare. From a legal standpoint, it's even closer.

 

[Maxwell]

Ask yourself the following...

Could you start a chain of convenience stores called eight-eleven, or seven-twelve?

Could you start a floral arrangement purveyor and use the phone number 1-888-FLOWERS?

Could you start a minor league football team in San Francisco and call it the San Francisco 48ers?

You could do all these things. The question is, will you get away with it?

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

... From a legal standpoint, it's even closer.

As should be obvious from the original post, the potential buyer is in an entirely different trademark category.

I posted here in the Domain Appraisal section because I am looking for estimate's of the domain's value, from people with an awareness of current market conditions. What I am definitely not looking for is trademark advice from people who don't understand trademark law - I can get that anywhere. Also, I am not asking to be trolled in any manner, I'm just here for knowledgeable estimates.

 

[Theo]

As should be obvious from the original post, the potential buyer is in an entirely different trademark category.

I posted here in the Domain Appraisal section because I am looking for estimate's of the domain's value, from people with an awareness of current market conditions. What I am definitely not looking for is trademark advice from people who don't understand trademark law - I can get that anywhere. Also, I am not asking to be trolled in any manner, I'm just here for knowledgeable estimates.

Let me translate what you said:

"The potential buyer is concerned about trademark implications and is reluctant to make a sizable offer for this domain. By posting here I am expecting everyone to massage my position and reinforce my assumption that any use of this domain, despite its resemblance to existing famous marks, would be blessed. I am determined to ignore any and all advice from established members, whom I will choose to arbitrarily respond to regardless of their expert opinion on the matter - but since I don't' want to pay an IP attorney $300 for an hour's consultation, I might as well post endless drivel here, it's free."

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

You could do all these things. The question is, will you get away with it?

No, you could not do ANY of those things, because they would all be violations of existing trademarks in those categories.

Again, I am specifically asking for opinions on the value of the domain with a view to negotiating with an existing potential buyer, there is no point anyone tying themselves up in knots of confusion over trademark law, that simply does not apply in this case.

Biggie's suggested ballpark range, along with the reasoning behind it, is extremely useful to me because I have not kept track of with current market values and, therefore, I would be grateful to hear other estimates on the current value. High estimates, low estimates, I would appreciate them all because they will arm me with an overall range as I enter into negotiations and, hopefully, I can feedback the end result here to the benefit of anyone handling similar situations in the coming months.

 

[Maxwell]

No, you could not do ANY of those things, because they would all be violations of existing trademarks in those categories.

Again, I am specifically asking for opinions on the value of the domain with a view to negotiating with an existing potential buyer, there is no point anyone tying themselves up in knots of confusion over trademark law, that simply does not apply in this case.

Note my second sentence... "The question is, will you get away with it?"

In actuality, NOTHING is stopping me from forming a corporation to the effect of Eight-Eleven Convenience Stores LLC, or starting a football team, and getting a bunch of "San Francisco 48ers" jerseys printed.

However, I'll probably be getting a call from a lawyer very soon, as a result of it.

The same way that I can go ahead and register faceboook.com (three o's), and point it to, say, myspace.com. I can do it... the consequences are another story.

In any case, addressing your concern about the value, somewhere in $x,xxx, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, Foursquare is over the hill, so you can only ride on their coattails for so long.

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

Let me translate what you said ...

Theo, are you actually, right now, having a stroke?

I said none of those things.

The potential buyer is NOT concerned about trademark implications, because there are none - no existing companies in the finance sector are using that name.

The buyer has not indicated reluctance of any sort, he has not mentioned any figure all (seriously, where are you getting all of this?)

I am posting here in order to get a sense of current market conditions and, so, far, Biggie's post has been very useful. My addition of further information, relating either to the facts of the situation, or discussing points raised, that is all part of how forums are meant to work, evolving the discussion. I am not trying to massage anything, figures are what matter - as I said, I don't want to sell the domain for too much less than it is worth, it doesn't matter a damn what I personally think of the value of the domain, it is all about the current market.

Forums are wonderful, it is just a great pity that some people develop an attitude over time. You may consider yourself to be an "established" member but, in this thread, all you have established is that you are a troll. In attacking me, what, exactly, do you think you are defending? Even if I was a brand new member (as opposed to someone who has been here for almost a decade), you have no right to throw your weight around like this. If you cannot make a useful contribution, how about giving us a break and trolling elsewhere? I mean, c'mon, you have already successfully derailed this thread and I still don't understand what you think you've gained here.

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

Note my second sentence... "The question is, will you get away with it?"

Fair point, I misread that.

Thank you for your estimate, it is extremely useful to have a second opinion alongside Biggie's.

I agree that FourSquare never really took off and, as far as I know, there is very little awareness of it in Holland. Luckily this potential buyer seems to like the name for other reasons.

 

[Theo]

With 65 posts in a decade, it's obvious that you "didn't keep track of current market values."

In fact, in a decade, the Internet as a whole has changed many times over. While it was cool once to register typos and variations of trademarks, it's very difficult these days to steal the thunder of existing marks, simply because even the smallest (not in this case) company can become "famous" quite fast.

In other words, creative names or brands need to distance themselves quite a few degrees of separation, before they can be utilized as such.

On another note, your guys are probably 5square.nl

 

[Theo]

Forums are wonderful, it is just a great pity that some people develop an attitude over time. You may consider yourself to be an "established" member but, in this thread, all you have established is that you are a troll. In attacking me, what, exactly, do you think you are defending? Even if I was a brand new member (as opposed to someone who has been here for almost a decade), you have no right to throw your weight around like this. If you cannot make a useful contribution, how about giving us a break and trolling elsewhere? I mean, c'mon, you have already successfully derailed this thread and I still don't understand what you think you've gained here.

Hey there buddy, who's having issues with reality check?

This is a forum, not your company's intranet. You post in the open, you are bound to hear opinions. If you think my style of delivering the news isn't your bread and butter, you can ignore my commentary; since you went public with something, I am not just allowed but *determined* to shed some light on ignorance.

Sorry old chap, try harder next time.

 

[Theo]

Since all you want is 'numbers' here are some from the 5square.nl website:

5square invests through a fund, 5square MKB Fund I, that is funded by a group of dedicated private investors. Investment-amounts typically range between EUR 1 mio and EUR 7.5 mio per each investment. 5square in principle focuses on substantial minority and majority stakes.

Now, before you get your pants in a twist, keep in mind that while large-funded companies have capital, they don't just dispose of it; they invest. As long as you can sell yourself as an investor, albeit of the digital/virtual asset type, there should be plenty of headroom - provided that certain conditions are met - for this domain to sell for $10k and above.

I hope you are satisfied with this response and good luck with your closing of the deal. If I were you, I'd ask for this thread to be removed, as it links the domain *that shall not be mentioned* to Google and other search engines.

 

[Theo]

Forgot to mention: close fast before 5squares.com / fivesquares.com grow large and decide to enforce their trademark.

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

With 65 posts in a decade, it's obvious that you "didn't keep track of current market values."

Quality, not quantity. I have not read your other 30,000 posts but, judging by the 4 you sprayed into this thread, I'm going to guess that your prolific contributions have not done much to actually help people.

Rather than write an obscene number of posts, I have spent the past decade working, traveling, attending domain conferences and gathering a portfolio of over a thousand dotcoms. Not one of the 65 posts I did make was used to troll or derail someone else's thread. I would say, on that basis alone, you are not really in a position to look down upon my contribution.

As someone who have NEVER owned a typo or trademark domain, I find you attempts to educate me more than a little patronizing. I have never even owned a trademark variation - I acquired FiveSquare more than a year before FourSquare was founded.

What I actually came here for, what I requested with absolute clarity, was help with current market estimates - yes, I am not a regular trader, there is no shame in the fact that I cannot spend every day tracking the latest sales, domains are now a relatively minor part of my life. In my own areas of expertise I gladly help others and, when I need help in other areas, I ask for it.

Now, look, perhaps I've taken you up wrong, or perhaps you're just having rotten day and needed to take it out on someone, but if you step back and look at this thread unemotionally, you will understand why I have taken exception to your attitude. You apparently perceive your behavior as justified because, as an "established" member, you need to stop me taking advantage of this forum but, really, ask yourself, is it justified? Is this the person you actually wanted to be when you grew up?

 

[EffectiveNames.com]

Forgot to mention: close fast before 5squares.com / fivesquares.com grow large and decide to enforce their trademark.

Okay, look, I appreciate that you are actually trying to be helpful with that.

However, just to clarify how the trademark system and, indeed, the UDRP rules apply, you cannot lose your domain because of a trademark that came into existence after your acquisition of it.

 

[Theo]

Since you haven't been much around here in 10 years, exactly how are you able to talk about the quality of my posts now?

Get off your high horse. If you want people to spend time on your inquiries, then learn to respect other people's time.

Incidentally, it took minutes for me to find who the other party making an offer is. By coming here to ask for advice you come forth as very naive and wet behind the ears with regards to domain valuation; unless, of course, you were also being lazy to research the market a bit.

Speaking of patronizing, I kept my responses clean and void of any useless drivel. What you don't seem to understand, is that I won't compromise on my writing style, just because you are in need of someone to hold your hand and walk you through every step in business, or life.

I strongly suggest that you leave domaining to those that have the business acumen and the experience to generate revenue; give this domain to a broker and sit back doing nothing - not much of a difference from what you've done so far.